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July 14, 2010

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oddjob

While not defending all of Sullivan's comments (or any necessarily, for that matter), I do feel compelled to point out to you that Byrd died the homophobe he always was.

Sir Charles

oddjob,

That doesn't surprise me. I guess I'd cut him a small amount of slack for being 92, but I don't really excuse it.

big bad wolf

Hear, Hear. I'm no schoolboy, but i know what i like. i like this post.

even a stopped clock is right twice a day, so that sullivan occasionally says things we on this side agree with is not surprising. i find him, for the reasons you lay out, impossible to approve of. he is self-righteous and self-pitying, casts terrible aspersions on all who disagree with him, turns on a dime, and expects to be hailed for his brilliance and deep feeling, no matter what side of what issue he's on that year. still, for whatever reason, the act works for him.

hitchens has, as best i can tell, always been a lunatic. he just used to be a lunatic on our side (and looked coherent and semi-reasonable juxtaposed with alexander coburn in the nation). he, like sullivan, is a smart guy (i think to this day he writes good book reviews) but he KNOWS ALL AND KNOWS IT IS IRREFUTABLE, until he knows its opposite.

life is nuanced. sullivan and hitchens seem to have no inkling of this.

Mandos seems to be handling the canadian side quite ably.

Sir Charles

Sullivan seems to me to lack a certain fundamental kind of self-awareness and empathy that one expects in a mature human being.

You are so right about Hitchens benefitting by having an unreconstructed Stalinist with whom to be compared.

I am holding Mandos responsible for Frum and Steyn. :-) I think there are a couple of other crazy right wing Canadians who have found a niche down here as well, but I can't think of them to save me.

big bad wolf

alexander cockburn, of course. odd, how my fingers did the sound, instead of the spelling.

being the not-entirely-serious person i am, i believe the most serious canadian offense against my political views (and ears) was geddy lee setting ayn rand to music.

Mandos

Not only did we give you Frum and Steyn, we took Judy Rebick from you albeit at the age of nine or something.

Mandos

Speaking of Steyn everyone feel free to use my crude image-edit where and if appropriate:

http://politblogo.typepad.com/politblogo/2007/03/steyn_attacks.html

Sir Charles

Mandos,

I wasn't familiar with Redick -- she sounds great.

You took Neko Case from us too. And Win Butler. We'll trade Frum and Steyn (sounds like a monster) for them.

Mandos

Yabbut you got me. For now, at least. Perhaps indefinitely. What am I, chopped liver?

Sir Charles

Mandos,

Definitely not chopped liver (although I quite like chopped liver -- I never quite understand that expression).

Mandos

A lot of us are not fans of organ meats. Weird, I know.

litbrit

Well, I never.

If you were my husband, I'd poison your tea, etc. etc.

Seriously, I don't get it either, C. Even when I was younger and pretty damned cute--if I say so myself--the Brit thing never did too much for me in the way of getting me a job in Big Journalism. Yeah, I can Gorilla-tape a fucked-up car together with my one good arm, but I only have a metaphorical Big Swinging Dick, not an actual one. Then there is my dreadful aversion to ass-kissing, so there you go. To the pink-collar ghetto with ye, be-yatch!

*Scurries off to fling the nunchaku around for a while*

Corvus9

This:

I suspect that if England bordered the U.S. you would be able to pull up to Home Depot in your truck and three Brits would jump in the back and begin explaining the days news to you. Our lawns would remain uncut, but we'd sparkle at cocktail parties.

Is one of the best things I have read all week. It would be the best thing, if I had only not just finished American Gods by Neil Gaiman.

Which is funny, because I think that book, by an Englishman, as it is, does an incredibly good job of understanding and commenting on the nature of America.

The literary critic M.M. Bakhtin pointed out that sometimes, an outsiders perspective can be quite useful in understanding a culture, as those who exist within it have blinders on to it's limits and iconsistencies. Perhaps American's, aware of the on some level of the vast, contradictory nature of our country, are more willing than most to embrace an outsider's perspective, because we need someone to explain this place to us, and understand on some level that we can't. Maybe America is uniquely situated, among countries, for this kind of treatment. After all, being an Englishman is a pretty straight-forward proposition—Soccer,the Queen, Pounds, wrong side of the road, toodle-pip and all that—but being an American isn't.

Sir Charles

Corvus,

Thanks. Actually, one of the best treatments of post-World War II American history is Godfrey Hodgson's America in our Time. Hodgson too is a Brit. But he is a serious historian, whereas a lot of these folks are just clever people with a lot of opinions.

(Hitchens is actually an American citizen at this point. Not sure about Sullivan.)

On a serious note, I don't mean to suggest that an outsider cannot have great insight into an adopted country. Certainly both Sullivan and Hitchens have lived here long enough to have valid opinions about the society. I am just remarking on the fact that their Britishness is a huge asset in terms of being taken seriously when both of their collective track records suggest that some degree of skepticism is in order.

big bad wolf

sullivan is still working on his citizenship application, i beleive, hence the cover-up of his marijuana case. just kidding, sort of. i sympathize entirely with him on the merits of the charge made against him. marijuana should not be illegal and smoking it should not casue a person to be perecieved or counted as a person unfit for citizenship. i do, however, wonder about how smoking marijuana in public in defiance of the law is a tory value, as opposed to an andrew value. again, i am hard on him, not because all of us should be consistent in all things (emerson got that right), but because his guiding principlce appears to be---what would andrew like to do? still i wish him luck and hope his citizenship application is approved. and really, if that lunatic hitchens was approved . . . .

oddjob

No, Sully is not a citizen. Up until very recently his HIV+ status made that impossible (as well as putting his residence here at risk).

big bad wolf

wow, oddjob, i didn't know the HIV part. that is, i knew he was postive, but not that that was holding up his citizenship. i stand by the marijuana part. if you're going to be setting rules for everybody else, which sullivan likes to do, you don't get to pick which ones to break in public

oddjob

You can thank Jesse Helms for those HIV rules. (I don't know whether Byrd voted for them or not, but they've always collectively been laid at the feet of the former Senator from North Carolina.)

T.R. Donoghue

I find Hitch oddly fascinating, but I think that's mostly because I really want to get paid handsomely to be a drunk polemicist.

Sullivan's approach to blogging is pretty interesting to me but as a human being I think he's incredibly immature. Also, nothing about the guy's life seems to flow logically from anything else in his life which makes it interesting to see what sort of crazy shit he comes up with next.

I'm no psychologist but Sully's unmitigated disdain for all female politicians save Margaret Thatcher seems like an area ripe for study.

minstrel hussain boy

from time to time i find hitchens amusing, in that grouchy drunk limey poofter sense. sully, not so much. how he can hang with the crowd that tells him he is a vile sinner who has gotten his just punishment (he's both catholic and conservative - - what the fuck happened to the berrigan type priests? that's what i want to know) is beyond me.

(aside to t.r.) i've often wondered about that thatcher thing too...did he do public school in britain? maybe catholic school. stern nuns with rulers and switches can really fuck up yer hed.

oddjob

Yes, he did public school (Anglican).

litbrit

Okay, I am back.

I've been thinking about this post today, Sir C, and I have to say, you've really upset me with your arrogant display of starstripian privilege. I thought I'd better push back a bit, on behalf of my, erm, marginalized brethren.

(1) There is nothing wrong with being British. Being embarrassed is part of it, yes, but there's nothing wrong with it, per se.

(2) There is nothing wrong with invoking a lot of Latin like per se and French in one's writing and speech. English is a mish-mash language anyway, and sometimes only a nice chewy 100%-Latin word or phrase will do. Q.E.D.

(3) There is nothing wrong with drinking beer at room temperature. If you've ever been to England, you know that our "room temperature" is the same thing as your "fucking freezing, man".

(4) We're meant to be this color. It helps us blend in with our natural environment (cf. "room temperature")

(5) You seem annoyed that Britain has foisted the odd export onto you (Hitchens, Sullivan, etc.) But considering what you Yanks have foisted on us--McDonalds, Calvin Klein underwear, Saran Wrap, track suits worn by people who clearly don't exercise, Saran Wrap worn by people who clearly don't exercise, and tea without milk or much sugar--and served "room temperature" at that!--all I can do is toss another of your American exports back at you and say: Paybacks are a motherfucker!

oddjob

and served "room temperature" at that!

Umm, don't you mean "served over ice"? ;)

oddjob

(You also forgot to mention powdered ice tea mix, from a box (lemon flavoring added). ;p )

minstrel hussain boy

brava mia cara! way to push right the fuck back!

i'm still dreading tomorrow's musical duty. . .i've settled on "come thou fount of every blessing," and "the obvious child." (bubba's band knows that one, and they have a drumline at the college where i was teaching intermediate strings until ahnald disappeared by position).

it's a pentacostal church so there will be an abundance of waving hands and making silly faces.

in emotional self-defense i invited my young niece to come over. we are making pie. blueberry pie.

film at 11.

litbrit

Mmmm. I wish there weren't a whole continent between us, MHB. I would so help you disappear those cakes and pies. It's funny--Robert doesn't have a sweet tooth, but he and his brother James, who stays with us part of the year, will always make exceptions for my pound cakes and cupcakes.

Trouble is, it's steam-room hot right now, and I do mean steamy, and I am about as unmotivated as I ever get. I must have reverse-SADD, because the brighter and hotter the sun is, the more sluggish and downcast I become. When it's dark out, or cold out--or both--wheeeeee! Every day is Manic Monday. Things get baked, furniture gets refinished, poems get written, schemes get hatched. I think there is a lot to be said for living in one's element, and mine is definitely not the tropics.

What instrument will you be playing--Celtic harp? So beautiful and so appropriately mournful.

oddjob

I can't imagine the exquisite agony that must occur when an atheist musician steps into a Pentecostal church service................

;p :)

(I know, I know. It's a living................)

oddjob

As to pies? All I can say is, damn, I wish I had a kid around to bake them for!!!

As it is, neither Housemate nor I need the extra pounds, and while I make a pretty decent pie (& have been complemented more than once on my crusts), neither of us needs to eat that much extra sugar.

:(

oddjob

i've often wondered about that thatcher thing too

He's mentioned on his blog that as a teen he had sexual fantasies about her. He's also mentioned on his blog that he sees a shrink.

Given that his thinking can be erratic, that probably doesn't surprise you all.

Sir Charles

Nothing makes me shrink so much as thoughts of Thatcher.

D.,

Oddly enough I really like room temperature beer and am always offended when I get Guinness or some other full-bodied beer, i.e. not Bud Lite Lime -- served too cold. English beer is a lovely thing -- even more lovely is that the denizens of the Commonwealth have now moved there and make the food to go along with the beer. Thus one can have exquisite Jamaican or Indian food to go with the beer rather than say, kidney pie.

I must say that Hitchens or Sullivan are probably superior exports to McDonalds. I am not sure about Calvin Klein underwear -- I suppose it depends on who is wearing it. (I believe I am clad in same right now -- I suspect if Calvin had his way he would come and repo it in order not to besmirch his name.)

Krubozumo Nyankoye

SC - Mother Teresa perhaps?

Sir Charles

KN,

You pose a genuine puzzler.

Corvus9

I must say that Hitchens or Sullivan are probably superior exports to McDonalds.

Not so sure about that, SC. Hitchens and Sullivan will help get you into pointless wars. McDonalds just makes you fat.

Joe

Mandos and Sir C, I think you have forgotten the all-time worst Canadian emigre turned political pundit. (Like, Alpha-Flight recurring super-villain evil). I speak of none other than: Charles Krauthammer, eh.

Mandos

Oh yes, Sir Doctor Cabbagemallet! How could we have forgotten him? But wikipedia says he was born in NYC, though raised in Montréal.

Also, Frum and Steyn still maintain a media presence in Canada and comment on Canadian politics and trade on their connections (in Frum's case, dynastic) in Canada. Sir Doctor Cabbagemallet has no contact with Canadian media, really.

Sir Charles

Joe and Mandos,

I knew I was leaving out a detestable pundit from the North.

Actually that reminds me -- I had an English colleague here in the mid-1980s who would not believe me when I told him that "Krauthammer" was his real name. (I then had to tell him that it's pronounced "throat warbler mangrove" which he had no problem believing.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyQvjKqXA0Y

Indeed, if you watch the clip you will see that comparisons to the great Dr. Cabbagemallet are not exaggerated.

Joe

Mandos, is Frum related to the Seagram's Liquor Dynasty in Canada ? I'd hate to think my Canadian Club purchases are financing David Frum.

Sir Charles

Frum sideswiped my car one day in an alleyway next to my gym. I swear to God he was going to drive away, but I happened to come upon him just after the deed was done. Motherfucker had a lovely two seater Lexus convertible and lives on probably the most expensive street in DC. Being a right winger has been very, very good to him.

Mandos

Joe: No, nothing so dramatic. It's a media dynasty. His late mother Barbara Frum was a very powerful and prominent media personality, journalist, radio host (As It Happens which you can hear on NPR was another of her babies), and news anchor. Not particularly right-wing in her reporting as I recall, except for, maybe one or two revealing incidents.

His sister is a Canadian senator, which is in Canada like being a British nonhereditary peer. She was very recently appointed by Harper...oh, sorry, by the Governor-General acting on behalf of the Queen on the advice of Cabinet in the person of the Prime Minister in order to stack the Senate in a rightward direction.

Mandos

Speaking of annoying DC pundit encounters, a blogfriend of mine made the news on an unpleasant encounter with the Orange One, Tucker Carlson, a while back.

Corvus9

In the "stolen from America by the dirty Maple Leafs" meme: William Gibson.

OK, so he left the country to avoid the draft. What, you guys aren't willing to start pointless wars, too? What gives?

Ian Welsh

Wow. That was quite the takedown. I am impressed Sir. Charles.

With respect to Hitchens, I think he's one of those guys whom 9/11 unhinged. He realized that people like him, people of his class, could die in stupid senseless unforseen ways, and it made him piss himself.

Fundamentally a coward.

Mandos

Speaking of really boneheaded American imports to Canada, the idea that it's wrong to have a compulsory census has made it to the topmost levels of the Canadian government. Yup. A Canuck econblogger with whom I have locked horns in the past has found himself at the centre of the opposition.

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