Weekend (and End of Year) Open Thread

"Blue Jeans" - Lana Del Rey

(I find this song strangely affecting (rather than affected), although I gather she has a lot of detractors.  Once you are on the wrong side of 50 it seems to me one should feel free to disregard critics and not worry a bit about what's cool.)

So sorry for the lack of posting, but I've been taking this whole tropical vacation thing very seriously.  Sun, sea, too much fine French food ( a real virtue of St. Maarten) for which I remain a sucker, a little bit of gym time (a true shock to the system) and reading large dead tree tomes -- in keeping with the French theme a huge biography of Charles de Gaulle.  I am mostly boycotting the fiscal cliff stories at this point until my return.

- I was happy to hear that Ed Markey is going to take a shot at the Massachusetts Senate seat and seems to have garnered a great deal of support right out of the box.  Markey has been a good guy for a really long time -- I remember when he was a young Turk seeking election to Congress for the first time in 1976.  It seems to me that if Markey can scare off any primary challengers -- which seems possible with his $3.1 million war chest and high level endorsements -- that he should have a pretty decent chance of beating Scott Brown.  He's not a young guy at age 66 and will probably only serve a couple of terms, but if he can hold the seat and give the Dems a chance to develop more state wide talent, he will have done a huge service.  He is a true progressive and a guy who has been on the cutting edge of energy and climate issues for a long time.

-I really liked this discussion by TNC on deciding not to live one's life "armed." It reflects my own sense that one has to live life with a certain level of fatalism -- not stupidity, but the acceptance that random bad shit can happen and you can either choose to obsess and worry about it or you can roll with it.  I certainly did not grow up like TNC, but I lived in a number of marginal neighborhoods during my first 15 or so years in DC -- from 1982 to 1998 -- during a pretty violent time in the city.  The thought of packing -- or living life afraid all the time -- just didn't seem appealing.  

- I was also amused by this TNC post about catching crap for not knowing who Augustine of Hippo was. TNC notes that he has some significant gaps in his formal education -- to which I'd reply who the hell doesn't.  It seems to me that there remains this sort of bizarre, old-fashioned canonical snobbery that should have been banished long ago.  Yes, it's great I guess to have a mastery of the western canon, but the notion that it is the true path to wisdom or being learned strikes me as ridiculous.  (Indeed when one considers the kind of knaves and fools who are expert in this sort of thing dropping the ancient Greeks from the curriculum might well be in order.)  Like TNC, I have a ton of gaps in my reading -- moreover, I am at the point in my life where I feel free to say that I find a whole host of big thinkers to be either unreadable -- Nietzche, Hegel -- or uninteresting -- Plato, Aristotle, and a pretty large bunch of the Philosophy 101 reading list.  I have found that the kinds of writing from which I learn best are novels, histories, and biographies and that I have a distinct bias for the language and rhythms of the 20th Century onward.  Philosophical and theoretical political tracts tend to leave me cold.  So I say each to his own on the path to wisdom.  

- And to prove my point, Yglesias, a philosophy major who is hooked on dumb ass economic thinking, expresses his skepticism about DC as a place to retire -- because of its expensiveness.  He argues that retirees prefer places like Arizona -- (yes, because cold weather and ice and snow really suck when you're old) -- and should really be thinking about places like Mexico and other low cost countries as places to retire.  This suggests that retirement location is a simple economic transaction.  But the reality is that people for the most part still retire where they lived and worked for most of their lives.  Strangely enough, most retired people want to be around family and friends and institutions that formed the core of their adult existence.  Additionally, cities like DC can be ideal places for retirees.  They do not have to depend on driving to remain mobile -- a huge issue for older retirees.  There are activities like museums and theaters for them to enjoy, an array of social services geared to the elderly, and good access to doctors and hospitals.  [My mother in law -- after decades in suburbia -- moved to DC after my father in law died.  She lived here for 13 years and loved it.  She had some assets from the sale of her house, a modest pension and Social Security.  She managed to live a comfortable life on income of about $30,000 to $40,000 a year in a nice apartment in a safe and convenient neighborhood.]  You would think a density advocate like Yglesias would understand that newer suburbs and exurbs that are not pedestrian friendly and lack public transit and affordable cabs are really horrible isolating places to be as you age.      

- And lastly, I am still waiting for the damn final, final figures on the presidential vote.  It appears now that every state has certified results, except Hawaii and New York.  So as a result, Obama's edge continues to slowly grow.  He now has 51.06% of the vote to Romney's 47.21%, with total votes of 65,892,366 to Romney's 60,926,847, a gap of 4,965,519 votes.  The total popular vote for 2012 is down by 1.72% compared to 2008, with New York State's vote down by 7.74%, the likely affect of Sandy.  But for the storm (New York and New Jersey will probably cast about 850,000 fewer votes than in 2008), it seems likely that the total vote would be within about 1 million votes of the 2008 election.  The final margin should be about 4%, right around 5 million votes, a pretty respectable beating administered by the Kenyan Usurper.  (Virginia's 51.16% for Obama and 47.28% for Romney is appearing more and more like an incredibly accurate reflection of national voting behavior.)  

So jump in the fray and let us know what's on your minds.     

Comments

[Quibblicus]

Victor Davis Hanson isn't remotely an expert in classical philosophy. His field was military history, with an obsessive focus on hoplites and their uses. If you are going to cite someone as an example of the uselessness of philosophy, you really ought to be able to find a better target.

Also: Nietzsche.

Also: Hegel.

Also: Western Canon. A cannon is the artillery piece that fires roundshot, grapeshot, canister etc.

[Sir Charles]

Q,

Thanks for catching the spelling mistakes. Vacation and all that. Also the limits of spell check.

Re: Hanson -- close enough for a cheap shot and a link to Roy.

As for Hegel and Nietsche -- evidently I not only find them unreadable but unspellable (also not a word).

[low-tech cyclist]

A few thoughts:

1) On TNC and living armed - I commented over there, but the gist of it was: if I were confronted with an armed shooter, and magically had time to reflect on my choices before dying in a hail of bullets, I'd be satisfied with my choice to live life unarmed.

Not only would the weight of the responsibility of staying adept at using a firearm and the effort of abstaining from using it as an outlet for my quite real temper all weigh on me, but of course if I were to have it quickly available at home to ward off potential intruders, and carry it with me while out and about in order to have it handy in that extremely unlikely confrontation with the armed shooter, the possibility that my young son would be able to lay hands on it to his own or someone else's detriment would be quite nontrivial. And I would quite honestly rather die in a hail of bullets than to add that risk to my son's life. And when you add in the fact that not once in my 58 years has there been a time when my possessing a gun would have improved the outcome of a situation, it's pretty clear that gun ownership would make my son's life more dangerous without making me safer.

2) In defense of Yglesias, he's not suggesting that anyone trade downtown DC for its suburbs and exurbs; he's suggesting trading it in for another city in a cheaper country. And he'd be the first to point out that DC would be a lot cheaper for a lot of people if the absurd height restrictions on DC buildings were repealed.

And I don't think he's saying that nobody can retire in DC, just that not everybody can retire in place in an expensive locale and maintain their lifestyle, a point I entirely agree with - I was tired 30 years ago of whiners who complained that New York or DC or LA or wherever had become so expensive that in retirement they couldn't afford to pay the property taxes on the home they fully owned, who wanted the rest of us to subsidize them instead of selling this huge honking asset and living like kings somewhere much cheaper.

He's also making an argument about medical costs and provision of medical care, but it's getting late, so I'll skip that one.

[Crissa]

I have a little sympathy for those who want to retain their homes - and businesses who want to remain in place - but I think that CA-Prop-13-style limits on property taxes should only apply to owner-occupied. personal-business/agriculture, and maybe a couple of zoning-used-as-intended for small businesses and historical locations.

Corporations and second homes and investment homes need to just go up with everyone else. This property-isn't-sold-when-company-that-owns-it-is-sold and investment property not going up is just fully outright wrong.

[low-tech cyclist]

The remedy that's been kicking around in my head for awhile is that if you're over 65 and want to be taxed at a lower rate, then when you die or move out, then the city/county (as applicable) gets to buy back your property at the valuation implied by that rate.

For instance, if you want to pay a tax rate that's 60% of the normal rate for a property worth what yours is worth, then when you die or move into the nursing home, the city gets to buy it from you for 60% of the appraised value, and could then turn around and resell it at market value.

Between the city and the retirees, at least, it would be a win-win deal; the only losers would be the heirs, who would get a bit less from the house than they'd anticipated, but such is life.

[Crissa]

...What about heirs living in the home? Reverse mortgages?

I don't like special deals for old people, either. It creates this lose-lose proposition for those injured in life who have to choose to be poor forever or for a short while.

[beckya57]

Shame on you for blogging while on vacation Sir C. We were speculating in a previous post that you were having too good of a time to blog.

I saw the TNC piece too. I lived in big cities in my early adult life (Chicago, St. Louis and Houston), and have lived for the last 26 years in a medium-sized city with a fairly high crime rate (Tacoma WA). I've never had a gun. The only time I was ever "armed" was with a whistle in Chicago. The U of C campus is in the South Side, which has historically had a high crime rate, and we were all given whistles when we enrolled, with instructions to blow if we ever felt threatened or if we heard someone's whistle. I never blew the thing the whole 4 years I was there. I do remember one guy in my dorm getting mugged (robbed, broken nose), and it stands out in my mind because that's the only time something like that ever happened to anyone I knew. (Speaking of the U of C, I do like Aristotle, but most of the rest of the old dead Europeans that I had to read there can stay dead as far as I'm concerned.) Obviously I've been very lucky, but I'm also street-smart: I stay aware of my surroundings, walk quickly and purposefully with my head up, avoid dark areas, etc.--just common sense. I remember one time recently when I thought I was being followed by a guy on a bicycle; I turned to confront him, only to realize it was one of my best friends, who I hadn't recognized because he was in shorts, helmet and sunglasses (he had a good laugh at my expense). I'm quite convinced by the stats that suggest having a gun usually makes people less safe, rather than more.

Re retirement: I think both you and Yglesias have good points (costs vs. ease of access). I sure wouldn't recommend Mexico these days, though. I recently read an article in the New Yorker that broke my heart, about how widespread the drug war has become, even into places like Guadalajara that have traditionally attracted US expats. When people ask me what I think about our drug policies I always bring that up. I spent a lot of time in Mexico when I was young and have a lot of affection for the country, but I wouldn't go there now (I'm banned from going to much of it even if I wanted to: federal employees are not allowed to go to any of the affected states). It infuriates me that we seem to be so clueless here in the US to the mass destruction our drug laws have caused in other countries. Costa Rica, which does have property crime but is much safer, and also has an excellent health care system, is a much better alternative these days for retirees.

[kathy a.]

ltc -- that formula sounds complicated. the current proposal for reforming prop 13 in CA is focused on commercial property -- which was the juice behind the proposition in the first place, even though they sold the sordid idea on visions of old people forced out of their homes.

if we get to a point in our own home where the property taxes are ruinous, that might be a hint it is time to move someplace more affordable. this was the house we bought to raise the kids -- we wanted the bedrooms and the family room and the yard, the proximity to open space. one kid has been independent for years; the other moved home after college; and the house is shockingly full of stuff accumulated over the years. and we still have pets. it's still fine for us, but we won't need so much yard and space forever.

i would rather retire here, close to friends and family. for some reason, my grandmother had the idea that all the right people retire to florida - -so she dragged my grandfather across country. and that did not really work out well when health failed and the money ran out. oy oy oy.

[kathy a.]

i liked TNC's piece about deciding not to live life armed. a lot.

it seems to me that the rabidly pro-gun people are wimps, and they lack both an understanding of how badly guns have inflicted huge damage, and an understanding that there are other ways to approach problems than brute force. most military-trained people i know have a very strong respect for safety issues; and a great many just do not want to be around guns much. many who have guns for hunting or because of rural threats like bears are also very safety-oriented.

and the NRA is not. they have fomented these fears; they have shut down collection of data that might help inform discussions of safety; they are opposed to any and every thing that might restrict, in any way, the availability of weaponry of all kinds. these people are lunatics.

[kathy a.]

also, the NRA is insane. did i mention that already?

[Crissa]

Yeah, I do think we should do something to let old people stay in town, honestly, Yglasias's idea fails to look at the social connections of being near where you already know.

I know in my town we have the problem that we haven't done anything to modernize the villages and so the businesses there have to shoulder the burden of losing their customers and build the town up while mansions on the hill get building permits and the village cannot increase (or even keep steady) its density. All which hurt old people.

[Linkmeister]

Honolulu has some of the highest property values in the US (like Manhattan, it's an island with limited space on which to build), and it's got multiple property tax exemptions for the elderly, which rise as they meet certain age milestones -- x dollars deductible from appraised value if you're 75, x + 20 thousand dollars more deductible from appraised value if you're 80, etc. It helps.

[oddjob]

As far as the Western Canon is concerned, of the regular commenters here I'm probably the least educated. While I know the names of several, I'm not at all sure that I've ever read any of the Western Canon, and yet I've got a bachelor's degree and have also gone to graduate school.

A science-based education can do that.

[oddjob]

(of several of the authors)

[oddjob]

Costa Rica, which does have property crime but is much safer, and also has an excellent health care system, is a much better alternative these days for retirees.

I've read before that Panama City also has a reputation as a desirable place for gringos to retire to.

[oddjob]

Chicago Sun-Times reports that Obama is lobbying the Illinois legislature to pass a marriage equality bill.

:)

[oddjob]

"Something has gone terribly wrong when the biggest threat to our American economy is the American Congress," - Senator Joe Manchin, West Virginia.

Hardly my favorite senator, but I give credit where credit's due.

[kathy a.]

tellin' it like it is, oddjob.

[kathy a.]

via balloon juice: some genius with a concealed carry license left his loaded, unlocked gun in a movie theater, where kids on a field trip found it the next day. the kids had enough sense to not touch it. the weapon owner checked the theater's lost and found to get his weapon back. the law says he no longer has a concealed carry license, which makes him sad.

[kathy a.]

the house is not holding a vote. what a bunch of losers.

[Sir Charles]

Happy New Year to all of you.

Sitting beach side waiting for dinner on a lovely evening here (now on Anguilla) --it's the kind of thing that makes me look forward to eventual retirement.

Supposedly there are fireworks at midnight. I have my doubts as to whether I will still be awake by then.

[kathy a.]

happy new year! sounds glorious, SC. well, you might be awake again when the fireworks go off. ;)

when the kids were bitty, we used to celebrate in a convenient time zone (a few hours east). we cut up a bunch of confetti out of wrapping paper, ribbon, construction paper, etc. -- put it all in a big bowl, and they would go wild tossing it! then we'd scoop a bunch back into the bowl, and do another round. best new years eves, ever!

[nancy]

Doorbell rang an hour ago. Surprise! Son finally home for Christmas, after one complication after another. Travel, weather, illness. We thought we'd finally see him tomorrow, but he hitched an early ride. So yes, a welcome good-bye to 2012. We'll open presents in the morning after hearing Beethoven's Ninth in our amazing symphony hall tonight. Fireworks. Midnight supper and bubbly. Fiscal cliff, trough, slide, chasm, detour, whatever -- or no. A Happy New Year to you all.

[Sir Charles]

becky,

I lived in shaky neighborhoods in DC during the PCP and crack epidemics and think I was probably just lucky to avoid any kind of victimization. I was probably somewhat advantaged by being tall and in those days fairly obviously fit, but I had several friends get guns stuck in their faces literally within a block of where I lived on Capitol Hill, which was in those days a very block to block kind of place in terms of gentrification. As a young lawyer I worked late a lot and I almost always traveled by subway and walking, so there were a lot of opportunities for mischief. Sometimes we rely on dumb luck and it comes our way.

kathy,

Like you I am of the idea that our social and familial roots really are more of the criteria for where to retire. (Although since I am typing this poolside on January 1st I reserve the right to change my mind.) I would think that pulling up stakes and leaving all you know behind could be a very alienating experience. (Having said that, I don't think I could ever go back to Massachusetts permanently, much as I have family and friends still there -- I just can't imagine wanting to have those winters again as I enter my dotage.)

Linkmeister and Crissa,

DC also has some pretty generous tax breaks for the elderly but I think that they are appropriately tailored to income level. I certainly don't think that Prop 13 style property tax constraints are the way to deal with this issue. I think that tax breaks really should be focused on income, not age.

nancy,

Happy New Year and glad to hear your son made it home. I confess I did not make it to midnight.

[Prup (aka Jim Benton)]

I did make it to midnight, so far I've only missed one New Year's, though I've rarely gone out -- and, as I've implied, Em isn't big on Holidays. (One year -- it was that weid year when it was almost 70 degrees on New Year's Gay, I happened to be living on 8th and 43rd, and was actually able to see the ball drop -- barely because it was a 2nd floor, not higher -- and I walked around -- in shirtsleeves -- after the crowd had left.

Anyway, have a legal question -- not personal but Em came across this story in the Daily News about Kansas trying to get child custody payments from the sperm donor to a lesbian couple who have since split up -- even over the couple's wishes.

Since our friend is over, the topic came up as to what the legal rights of a sperm donor were -- for example, can he keep anonymous if the child wishes to dioscover him -- as well as the questions raised in this case. Since i know tghis site with all these lawyers and law junkies...

Well guys, are there any general principles, does it vary from state to state, and what do you think of the specifics of this case?

[Prup (aka Jim Benton)]

New Year's Gay? The images are *ahem* interesting but it was just a typo.

[kathy a.]

wow, prup. that sperm donor situation is all kinds of messy, is all i can say! state laws vary regarding all manner of situations around parenting. it sounds like this couple might have consulted a lawyer, even, since they apparently had a written agreement.

i have to wonder if this situation has come up before. researching that would be a place to start. another place to start is kansas law regarding whether the guy can be considered a legal parent. a third area is contract law; first, whether the contract is enforceable on its face; and then there could be an argument that there was nothing to put the people entering the contract on notice that a donor was on the hook unless a doctor performed the procedure. (really, a doctor is not necessary for the turkey-baster method; why should that make a difference?)

a place to look, if interested, might be findlaw.com, which has blurbs about various areas of law in the different states. but this is complex and novel enough that if it came up for a friend, i'd be busy trying to identify lawyers doing cutting edge work in the area of parental rights and responsibilities.

just another way that the failure to recognize same-sex marriage puts extra burdens on families.

** it probably is the state's practice to go after legal parents for child support, when the custodial parent seeks public benefits. my impression is that most states do.

*** the donor's anonymity is a separate question -- and again, laws may differ. but this was not a situation where the child was, for example, adopted via an agency; so, no records there. it is very unlikely that his name appeared on the birth certificate, since he already relinquished parental rights. but he is certainly not anonymous, since they knew who to look for. it is possible that the child regards him as an "uncle" or something -- which is how a similar situation worked out when a gay friend donated to lesbian friends of his.

[Sir Charles]

New Year's Gay -- a festive holiday if ever there was one.

I am hardly an expert in family law -- I only remember the mantra "best interests" of the child for taking the bar exam.

I think states generally take a very aggressive approach to child support if it will keep the kid off the dole -- they may not be willing to respect the wishes of the custodial parent in such a situation.

As in many things, our technological capabilities frequently outstrip our laws and our wisdom.

[Prup (aka Jim Benton)]

Thanx, guys. Btw, I had only actually looked at the print version, just got the cite and hadn't examined it to realize it included some details the print didn't, like the thing about the contract and the doctor.

As for the anonymity issue -- a different question -- I was specifically thinking of a case where the child knew she was a product of donation, but the donor's name was kept from her. Could she later discover it? (I should say, btw, that I am not sure I agree with the movement towards a child's rights in this matter. I do not believe a mother or father who -- out of necessity, say -- has to put a child up for adoption and wishes to remain anonmous should have those wishes automatically ignored, as seems to be the way the law is heading.)

[kathy a.]

i'm not sure, but i think in the case of adoptions there usually are intermediaries to be sure both sides welcome contact. maybe that is not true in all cases, though.

some people seek their birth parents because they need to know more about their family medical history -- because of their own medical needs. family medical history can be really important for diagnostic purposes. (that old canard about something "running in the family"? it's scientifically true, and has become more important with diagnostic advances.)

this is totally not my area of law. just impressions and thoughts.

[big bad wolf]

so, among the things i reread over my vacation were gilgamesh, oedipus rex, oedipus at colonus, and antigone. i had no particular agenda. my readings do make me have some reservations about TNC's position. there really is, i think, something to these old texts. that is not to say there is not a lot to new texts. it is only to say that dismissing things that have had some appeal over the long haul in favor of what is recognizably ours or mine might not necessarily be the best course. nor is overvaluing old texts the best course. but there might be more under the stars than is dreamed of in any one philosophy, idealistic or materialistic. good ideas occur in many places; often they are not ideas that explain everything, but that focus on our limitations. none of this is to say we should not aspire, but i do think we should be a little less sure, a little less convinced that we are always new, advanced, smarter. maybe we only relearn most of what is already known with a percent or five increase---important, but not so significant as to justify a feeling of assurance? this doesn't mean we should not advocate, even strongly. i think it might mean that we might want to rein ourselves when we are very sure we see wrongness or badness

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

It's not that I can't appreciate foundational texts. It's just that my experience of some of them is that really being wowed by them would require us to unlearn certain things that have already been fully absorbed in the culture. I have experienced this most profoundly in the theater where once cutting edge works often strike one as obvious and ham-handed.

I am not suggesting that modern sensibilities are the beginning and end of wisdom, but sometimes from an aesthetic point of view they render older works of art less compelling and relevant to our experience of the world.

[oddjob]

I didn't take TNC's comments to mean the Western Canon had little merit. I think what he was criticizing was the stance that if one hasn't read it one isn't really educated.

(For what it's worth I've always found Oedipus to be a true puzzlement. I don't, and can't, understand why any society would regard it a just thing to disown such a person when he had no idea he was killing his father or marrying his mother.)

[Sir Charles]

oddjob,

I think that is a fair reading of TNC's post.

My further point was that I find the notion that the canon is the essential repository of such wisdom to be a very limiting one.

I always find the Alan Bloom sensibility on such matters to be absurdly constipated.

bbw,

One of the things I loved best about Bloom was the degree to which Mick Jagger and the boys drove him apeshit. It did seem in its way to be a compliment about their satanic powers.

[oddjob]

My further point was that I find the notion that the canon is the essential repository of such wisdom to be a very limiting one.

And I can just imagine how a Chinese scholar of Confucius, or Lao Tzu, or Buddha who hasn't ever read the Western Canon might feel upon reading such an assertion!

[Joe S]

Sir C and bbw, I have a conflicted view of the canon, and Bloom's claims regarding the canon. First, I think Bloom has a point. Part of the strength of the Western Canon (and some the great works of the East, oddjob) is the emotional response they create. Reading Sartre, Kojeve, the philosophical works of Camus, Kierkegaard, Unger, left me with a strong understanding of living in the world. Reading and seeing Antigone, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, Goethe, Melville, Julius Caesar, Henry V, Richard III, gave me an emotional attachment to what the philosophical implications of living in the world meant. In part, Shakespeare is so good because the rhyme and meter invoke emotional responses in our brains which match the dilemmas the characters face. I got the same feel from reading the Bhagavad Gita and Midnight's Children after reading some of the philosophical implications of Buddhism and Hinduism. We are emotional beings and the emotions the Canon evokes are part of what binds us to the insights about humanity the canon touches on.

[paula]

fascinating, joe!

[Sir Charles]

Joe,

I actually read all of Camus's philosophical works and liked them, although there were those who suggested his knowledge of many philosophers was a bit scanty. I would argue that his greatest works were his novels and that they were an example of extraordinary artistic depth in shockingly few pages. The Stranger, The Plague, and The Fall probably amount to little more than 500 pages, but their quality -- especially The Fall is sublime.

My point was not to disparage such works, but to note that some of us skipped or have read minimally and grudgingly some of the older and more difficult writers, while reveling in more modern philosophical works like those produced by Camus.

I think Bloom tended to view the canon in a very reactionary way. Nothing new was ever as good -- everything worth saying had evidently been said by the ancient Greeks.

[Joe S]

Sir C, That's the problem I have with Bloom. As you know, I am much more sympathetic to the postmodernist types than you are. I take very seriously that subordination creates a different point of view and a different voice which is why I regard Ellison's Invisible Man as equal to any work of Shakespeare or the Greeks. Shakespeare and the Greeks operated from a point of view of the leaders of society (with the possible exceptions of the Merchant of Venice and Othello). Ellison was writing and providing a view into the existence of those who are excluded from the apex of society. This is Bloom's essential blindspot- his refusal to understand and value the contexts of those excluded from the apex of society and to reify the point of view of the ruling class as universal. Tragedy and humanity can be reflected through society's leaders-- but to ignore the outcast of society is to fence yourself off from important aspects of the human experience (Hegel would probably say the most "humanizing" aspects of human experience if we take the master-slave dialectic seriously).

[big bad wolf]

ahhhhhh. just lost, because of the internet locking up, a long, long comment. i haven't got it in me, quite literally, to reconstruct, so some quick thoughts.

SC, it's not about being wowed. yes, some old things wow. most that endure, i find, don't so much wow as insinuate, impress, stimulate, touch. in short, they, as joe says, capture your brain and heart with rhythms. we look for wow. we review in terms of wow. but wow only occasionally endures, i think.

relatedly, oddjob, sophocles's oedipus rex is not about the casting out. oedipus catches and damns himself, though the chorus suggests he should stop, as does jocasta. and he is not expelled, despite his vows. that happens only much later and is another family and psychological drama. there is much that is strange in the plays, but much that is familiar.

and, while i agree with joe about the importance of the view of the excluded, i think there are, among others, two points. an artist, even if of the elite, never writes (paints, creates notes) from only that viewpoint. the ones that last are nuanced, subtle, varied. they may be of, but are never only of. sophocles, at least in the translations i have read, has this quality. there is elitism and much more. the flip side, and this is where i am less sure of TNC (i agree disdainful folk are intolerable) is that merely being of the excluded does not, any more than being of the elite, mean you have anything worthwhile to say. likely we will who live now will never know. contemporaneity makes us poor judges of enduring quality. thus to say, i have read these people closer in time and circumstances to us does not really address whether or not those texts are as longitudinally useful as (some) of those already found to be so over the years.

[big bad wolf]

SC, i laughed and laughed when i read bloom on mick jagger. that was many years ago, and i suppose, to be fair, i should reread it, but i suspect i;d feel the same. the irony, of course, is that, since bloom wrote his book, jagger has become something much more like what bloom posited---jaded, tired, inanely and distractingly provoking. the young stones were genuinely challenging, in the short term, in a way that was intellectually, emotionally, and socially useful. our tired aping of tropes they established may be less worthwhile, but so it has always been.

and how wonderful is it, for those of us who love fiction as our guide rather than philosophy or political science or, gasp, even law, that alan bloom was rendered far more appealingly in saul bellow's (damned conservative novelist) "ravelstein" than in his own words?

i'll lay my cards on the table---my best moment of 2012 was visiting william faulkner's grave when i had an argument in oxford, mississippi. i was this close to faulkner. i mean, sure, he was dead, but still.

another of my readings over vacation was a nice melding of old and new---david markson's vanishing point. not as strong as his other efforts of this centurt "this is not a novel" and "the last novel" but pretty interesting

[kathy a.]

i was this close to faulkner. i mean, sure, he was dead, but still. this, i love.

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

The irony is that even when Bloom was fulminating about Jagger thirty or so years ago, it was at a point where many felt that punk had rendered him essentially a nostalgia act -- unfairly I think, but he was far from a cutting edge figure at that point.

My point on the canon, which I think I've made poorly, is that more modern artists, like Faulkner, Camus, or Ellison, in more modern forms like the novel, have, I think, much more profound things to say to us about the human condition -- as we experience it -- than the ancients.

It's funny -- Bellow has always left me cold, long before I had any inkling of his politics. He is just a guy that doesn't connect with me in any way, which may say more about me than him. I liked Ravelstein more than most of the other things I have attempted, but I never bothered finishing it.

Bloom, by the way, may well have been the most peculiar conservative hero of our lives. I mean really -- an immensely snobby and elitist gay classics professor. Who'd a thunk?

[Joe S]

Sir C, Haverford has lectures of Carey McWilliams' American Political Thought Since the Civil War course. Professor Carey McWilliams past away mid way through the course, and his daughter, Susan McWilliams took over. She did a lecture on Tragedy, Plato, Freud, and the Blues which really gave me an appreciation of the Old, Dead Greeks. Also, David Simon has a lecture on Youtube where he connects Camus to the Ancient Greeks in writing the Wire. Those two lectures gave me a feel of relevance for Greek tragedy. Maybe you should listen to them and see if parts of the Canon speak to you. You can just google "Haverford College" "Carey McWilliams."