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April 09, 2012

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beckya57

I've been having a lot of trouble with posting comments, but here goes....

I have also spent a lot of time in racially mixed areas, including living in 2 that were predominately black at the time (south end of Hyde Park in Chicago and the poor end of University City just outside of St. Louis). No one ever bothered me. I do remember one guy in my dorm at U Chicago getting mugged and his nose broken, but I remember it well because it was so unusual. We all carried whistles at Chicago, and we were supposed to blow them if we felt threatened, or heard someone else's whistle. I never blew mine once (was there for 4 years). I was appalled at the casually expressed and accepted racism and anti-Semitism I experienced while living in a small town in Georgia back in the 80's; people just assumed that I understood that that was how it was.

The Bell Curve is propaganda dressed up as science. The Derbyshire rant was unbelievable. The right wing has been stoking the fires of racism ever since Obama announced as a candidate, and we're reaping the whirlwind.

KN

It's simple and not so simple SC. Y'all might wonder from my name just where I fall on the spectrum of skin color. While it is true that there can be racism in either direction between two or many, I have the impression that whites tend to be rather paranoid in this respect.Not all by any means, and certainly not without some small modicum of justification perhaps if they happen to be contractors working in Iraq or Afgahnistan.

What I find so strange as to defy all logic is that anyone can conclude that because other people look different they must be evil and dangerous. Don't we all look different?

All I can conclude is that racists are cowardly, and dumb.

beckya57 - try to think of the situations you described from the point of view of someone of color. It is interesting that you spent some time in U City, I lived in that town for a while - well St. Louis in general.
I am not being critical here, but I would like to suggest that your experience of being - how shall we say - steadfast in living in a racially tilted community, is not exactly comparable to the experience of a black man looking for a job.

I try to ignore any outward characteristics of those I deal with, I don't care how they look I only care what they do.

kn

That turing machine test to post is ludicrous.

oddjob

Derbyshire evidently did not see the need to keep the pasties of respectabilty on any longer.

LOL! Love the turn of phrase!

Sir Charles

KN,

I don't think either Becky or I was suggesting that our experience in living in racially mixed places was comparable to the experience of being black in America. I think what we were both reacting to was the fear based message that Derbyshire and his supporters seem to view as self-evidently good advice -- don't live among blacks, don't live in places where black people have political power, don't go to places where you might be in the racial minority, and don't help black people in situations where they appear to need help.

The suggestion is that we liberals understand and live by these rules as well -- we just don't have the Derb's courage in saying so.

And we were both saying that this is not the case, that most of us who have chosen to live in cities in the U.S. do not live in constant fear of our black neighbors.

Tara Frickles

I've lived in a lot of mixed communities the past few years. I don't really mind that there is a large percentage of blacks in my place anymore. It doesn't really make much of a difference.

Phil Perspective

Sir Charles:
But .. but .. but .. Will Wilkinson tells me that Charles Murray isn't racist .. because he met him once .. or something. Seriously, he said that to me over the Twitter machine. And get a load of this fisking of Ross "Chunky Bobo" Douthat

Paula B

RE: Douthat on US theological history

As for Mitt gaining points for ancestors being persecuted for their faith, ask any Jew how far that has gotten them. (How many have been pushed forward in the presidential nomination process on the pity vote?) Some of my ancestors were persecuted in the 1660s for being Protestant, so they left Europe to come here. That and $3.59 gets me a cafe grande at Starbucks. So what?

Furthermore, I can't tell you what was going on in the life or mind of my childhood spiritual mentor. I just knew I liked the guy and he inspired me to do good things. What else does a kid know or need to know about a pastor? He could have been a terrorist for all I knew.

This is such bombastic drivel. HE seems to leave out attenuating factors to religious evolution including a burst of immigration from latin and non-Christian countries, women joining the workforce, the GI bill and its impact on the number of people getting a college education, new technology, a couple of wars, an entire generation of disaffected youth, a rash of political assassinations involving youth heroes, among others. Actually, Douthat, there were a few things going on in the US between 1950 and 1980, besides theological or administrative splits in organized religion. There was also the growth of spirituality that undermined the need for organized religion, for some.

What does any of this have to do with whether or not an individual might be an effective national leader?

Paula B

>>>Derb just spoke the common sense that we all understand, including we phony liberals. How do you explain to these fearful ignoramuses that this is just not the case? That many of us have long lived in places with large, even majority, black populations, that we do so without spending every day cringing in fear or clinging to our guns, that we walk the streets and ride the subways and go to bars and restaurants and clubs without becoming paralyzed by fear that "they" are out amongst us. <<<

This needed to be said. Thanks for this, SC. The basis for liberalism does not rest on a cover up or excuse, but on an acceptance of differences and commonalities among us all, without expectations. People gain or lose respect depending on what they do, not what they look like.

How do we explain this? Loud and often, I guess.

Sir Charles

Phil,

Wow -- that's just a dismantling. I was reading that column and thinking it was bullshit, but it's nice to see this sort of thing put to an actual historical test. Brooks does this sort of thing all the time as well.

Paula,

I don't think they believe us. Although given the degree to which many urban areas have been gentrified over the last three decades, you would think the fact of this would be obvious. In DC, this phenomenon has really happened to an amazing degree -- you see young white kids living in places that were incredibly tough when I moved to the city. Of course, I lived two blocks from an open air drug market back in the late 80s. One of the joys of being young is a certain blitheness of spirit that right wingers, alas, do not seem to possess. .

Paula B

One more thing, like Sir C and perhaps others, I didn't grow up in an environment that drilled liberal thought or racial equality into my head. Differences may not have been pointed out but they were understood, as is the case today in many areas within the US, north and south. When you live, work or go to school as part of a minority population, you are forced to pay more attention to people you don't resemble. You learn either to trust them or fear them. For me, familiarity didn't make me more prejudiced, but less. That's the value of living in a diverse community, as I see it.
I don't find experience to be such a radical teaching tool, but I might be wrong because whole swaths of the population appear to be unable to gain any insights into racial, ethnic or religious differences or commonalities despite what they see and do in their daily lives. And, I'm talking about prejudice in all directions. Maybe some people, including Derbywhatsit, assume they can't trust their own minds. The good they see or experience might be aberrations, with reality hiding behind some sanitized liberal cloak. So they build gated communities and carry weapons, just in case.

kathy a.

paula -- re 1660's religious persecution -- have you read "the wordy shipmates" by sarah vowell? my sister points out that one can see the roots of US fundamentalism there.

phil -- excellent dismantling of theological history.

derbyshire is unspeakable. that he got tossed from NRO should be a large hint, because we are talking about a low bar for acceptability on issues of race and diversity.

my family of origin was not liberal central. my maternal grandmother used the term "pickanniny" and thought she wasn't the flaming racist she was because she remembered fondly her family's "laundress" (who doubled as a nanny, and was a descendant of slaves formerly owned by her family). that grandmother paid for my first semester at a private kindergarten, so i would not have to go to school with black children. (that life plan for me did not work out.)

both my parents were lifelong republicans. during the watts riots -- 20 miles away and over some hills -- my sibs and i had to duck under the windows at the front of our suburban house, so as not to be shot by the black rioters, who were expected any minute.

i turned out peculiar because i believed the other things my parents and church said, about equality, loving one another, putting oneself in another's shoes, and so forth. and i remember exactly my deep shame, when a college classmate described during a discussion group what it was like for him during the watts riots, when he lived in south central LA as a young black child. the troops were sent in. there was gunfire; there were helicopters; there was a strict curfew enforced by orders to shoot on sight. there was not enough food. they were terrified, and for good reason.

walk in another's shoes seems to be a lost art for the haters. i am no longer a religious person, but for all the holier-than-thou protestations, some of the loudest voices cannot manage simple human decency, caring, thoughtfulness.

Paula B

kathy--thanks for the tip. I'll look up that book. Of course, the Huguenots left it to their descendants to learn how to persecute others. I have no illusions that persecution breeds tolerance.

oddjob

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy."
- Ezekiel 16:49 (New International Version)

oddjob

(The Prophet Ezekiel speaking the words of Jehovah to a later generation of the Children of Israel.)

Sir Charles

Paula,

I actually grew up in an incredibly white part of the world, but one that was extremely economically diverse. And I think that was to my advantage in terms of tolerance, because I knew white people who were thugs and criminals and bullies and drug users/dealers and ne'er do wells of every kind. It never occurred to me that black people had a monopoly on such behavior as these clowns imply.

Now it is true that in DC, one by and large does not worry much about white youth, other than that you'll be walking down your less than densely populated street and Klein, Yglesias, and Ackerman will be all up in your grill about the bad land use in your neighborhood and threatening to take away your curb cut. Here the rough white people are the ones with only a BA -- and probably from a state school.

But in the Boston of my youth there were plenty of white people that I would have crossed the street to avoid at night. Indeed, as I recall, there were a significant number of young people with whom I share an ethnic heritage who were rather infamous for their pleasure in acts of group violence. I think investment bankers and doctors now own the houses they grew up in.

kathy a.

oddjob -- i so love that you can come up with a good hearty biblical citation.

oddjob

When it comes to the matter of hospitality (sensu lato) finding relevant, biting, Biblical commandments and observations is actually pretty easy. That in particular is one feature of the Jewish civilization of that time and place that is of a piece with the hospitality extended towards the stranger that's still found in the Arab Middle East today and that can also be seen as a commandment in some ancient Greek myths. My impression is that hospitality is a pretty big issue in most Mediterranean and Middle Eastern cultures, and long has been.

Paula B

>>rough white people are the ones with only a BA -- and probably from a state school.<<

Love it!

Hey, I just read about Zimmerman's attorneys withdrawing from the case. I thought defense attorneys could never do that, unless they were fired by the defendant. ?guys?

nancy

captcha test -- Paula reports it out again. Here goes...

Paula B

>>arrogant, overfed and unconcerned<<

God help us all.

Sir Charles

Paula,

I think it depends on the circumstances. Here, there is no ongoing case and no client under arrest. I think you are free in such circumstances to walk pretty much when you want.

nancy

This is really making me laugh. Mitt launches a new line of attack -- the real 'war on women' is being waged by the President. The sales job is tasked to none other than the ever-charming Bay Buchanan. I dunno. The juxtapositions are more comical with each day. Mitt and Bay, famous* women's advocate.

Makes me think Congresswoman Cathy, recently on these *assignments, finally went awol. She hasn't tweeted anything much at me in a few days. Or maybe she's put her thinking cap on.

kathy a.

zimmerman's lawyers were pro bono, and they hadn't made any court appearances since he isn't even charged. a client not keeping in touch and doing his own thing without advice are pretty good reasons to get out while the getting is good.

geez, nancy -- the war on women being led by obama? in what universe?

kathy a.

dear lord; look at this: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/zimmerman-attorneys-reveal-george-zimmerman-is-not-in-florida-and-much-more/

nancy

kathy -- in what universe? this one (my last addition to previous thread) :

Left off a tag. Pierce:

(Can we at least agree that the obviously idiotic parts of the Citizens United ruling consist of the fact that the ruling itself guarantees that events will make a farce out of the reasoning behind it, and that its view of how American politics actually function is evidence that Justice Kennedy arrived here as a youth from the planet Zontar?)

Making all the appropriate strike outs and substitutions of course. :-)

Sir Charles

nancy,

And God knows, the women of America look to Bay Buchanan to tell them what's on their minds.

kathy,

Sean Hannity for the defense -- what could go wrong.

Although what the hell the former defense attorneys were doing here in this press conference I'm not sure. I guess they wanted to be clear that they weren't involved in him leaving the jurisdiction.

KN

SC - Well I tried to make plain that I wasn't intending to imply that any such equivalency could be made, rather I was trying to encourage the kind of putting one's self in another's place kind of thinking that can be at least a little broadening and I think that is a good thing.

As I said in my comment, I just don't 'get' the race thing on a philosophical level, but I surely do perceive it much as any objective observer would in social terms. The animus towards the president is so obviously racial at root with virtually all of his critics that it is viscerally apparent.

I was also trying to elicit some feedback from someone else who lived in the St. Louis area, because there is no doubt in my mind that race is an issue there. Class is also an issue. It is one of many microcosims.

Sir Charles

KN,

I think there are few cities in America that have not had some significant racial issues, although I think there are lots of localized peculiarities. Boston, which had some intensely ugly ones, was a place in which a large and profoundly parochial white working class had remained within the city limits, leading to very direct conflicts, exacerbated in turn by busing.

Los Angeles has had a long history of incidents sparked by a racist and overly-militarized police force.

I don't have a deep knowledge of St. Louis, but Missouri's position as a border state and as the frontier of pre-Civil War terrorism have certainly made it a place where issues of race have been at the forefront.

kathy a.

arizona: no abortions after 18 weeks; gestational age determined by last menstrual period (that is, pre-conception); OK to lie about fetal abnormalities if the woman might abort; parents cannot sue on behalf of children after birth; schools must teach that birth or adoption are best in the event of unwanted pregnancy.

Paula B

kathy---I feel like Alice looking down the rabbit hole! It really IS 1950! I hope the good people of Arizona are prepared for lots more babies with teen moms, an increase in children with birth defects and possibly an increase in child abuse or neglect. Better beef up your social services agencies and special ed programs.

Add the AZ news to what is below and it's déjà vu all over again, as Yogi would say.

Tea-party member US Rep Allen West of Florida says he's heard 80 House Democrats are members of the Communist Party: http://bit.ly/HwWLVj

oddjob

The (Democratic) Mayor of Boston, Thomas ("Mumbles") Menino, has yet to endorse Elizabeth Warren, and that may cost her dearly:

Elizabeth Warren's Other Opponent: Mumbles Menino

Hat tip, The Plum Line.

kathy a.

SC and KN -- there was a complicated background to (for example) the watts riots in L.A. earlier, many areas of the city had restrictive covenants preventing blacks from living in those areas. that is how there ended up being a large minority population in south central.

many blacks migrated from the old south to work in WWII wartime industries along the coast -- the war provided opportunities to earn decent wages and move into the middle class. there were fewer jobs after the war, but still quite a few jobs in manufacturing in the area of south central -- however, those had largely moved out by the late 1950's and early 1960's, if i'm remembering correctly. so, lack of economic opportunity caused a lot of pressure on citizens and families in that area.

there were not a lot of jobs in south central; and public transportation was seriously deficient, too, so residents who could not afford a car had great difficulty getting to where the jobs were. it might take 2-3 buses to get a sick child to the hospital.

as the jobs moved out, so did services and businesses. supermarkets were rare; corner stores offered a poor selection and high prices. redlining meant that citizens were charged more than those in other areas for banking, mortgages, etc. in schools with largely minority populations, teachers were also mainly white; because of depressed economic circumstances, they were also seriously underfunded.

as SC suggested, the police force was largely white and widely perceived (with ample justification) as hostile.

so, there were a number of circumstances contributing to the frustration and hopelessness that ignited the riots in 1965. these circumstances were absolutely not recognized or understood by the white community.

when violence was sparked by frustration, efforts to negotiate peace failed. there was an overwhelming police response, the national guard was called in, martial law was imposed, and this struggling community was further devastated. south central was a war zone. this did not inspire confidence in the police as protectors of the community.

investigations were held; recommendations were made. i no longer lived in LA by the time of the 1992 riots, but have the impression that really not a lot had changed for the better in south central since the watts riots in 1965.

kathy a.

y'all know i'm not condoning riots; violence isn't a solution.

just saying that the actual experiences of african-american citizens include circumstances that derbyshire completely ignores. the advice he gives -- stay away from blacks, don't go to their neighborhoods, know that with a few exceptions they are inferior -- does nothing but feed the cycle of ignorance and hatred.

kathy a.

paula -- HA! blast to the past, indeed. members of the communist party?????

as mentioned earlier, my parents were lifelong republicans. my mother was particularly batshit -- and even she condemned mccarthyism.

Paula B

Another one bites the dust: http://bit.ly/I3nKK3
Staff must be getting pretty lonely over there at NR by now. A veritable hornets nest.

Paula B

Zimmie's toast.

nancy

Last year in southern Idaho, police arrested a woman for inducing her own abortion. I'd forgotten the details, but this is where the case sits now. This is a very sad tale. It certainly won't be the last.

Three lower-profile pro-choice groups have filed a legal brief on behalf of McCormack. Lynn Paltrow is the president of one of those groups, the National Advocates for Pregnant Women. She sees McCormack as the start of a disturbing trend.

“You pass laws first that say only physicians can perform abortions. Then you pass laws that make it impossible for those physicians to provide abortions. And then women take the steps they need to take as they do all around the world, as they did before Roe," Paltrow says. "And you create a perfect setup for making literally millions of women subject to arrest for having illegal self abortions.”

KN

SC - STL was the first place I ever lived where racism was a palpable every day affair that everyone seemed to tolerate, it struck me then as strange, I was only 13. My experience was brief, when I was 17 I left STL for NYC and lived in Bedford Stuyvestant for the next four years, it was different but in many respects better. I happened by somewhat freaky circumstances to live in the LA area during the 1992 riots. I think there was some justification to them though as has already been pointed out violence serves no purpose except perhaps uncork the seething rage and thus avoid even worse violence.

I'll resist launching in the a Prupian exposition here but I think the one curative is people being more or less without alternatives except to share space, discover that they really are not all that different from each other, on the contrary, more alike than different, and that there really are some important issues that we can only effectively deal with by collective and cooperative action. Sadly I think the cult of potential wealth (which is almost never realized, the lottery of life if you will) tends to work in favor of the few being readily able, willing and absolutely without scruple in manipulating the many to act against their own best interest.

I guess I would have to say that the thing I find most astonishing and incomprehensible is that it is so obvious that the right wing encourages, fans the flames of divisiveness and conflict among all those not 'qualified' to belong to their particular country club in order to hold onto power, wealth, privilege and the disposable 'others' they exploit. Long ago I learned that living in society requires both a sense of belonging and a sense of mutual responsibility. The right wing seems to have perfected aggrandizing the elitism of being a member of the right wing, while utterly rejecting any sense of empathy or unity of purpose. Ask someone at random tomorrow what E pluribus unum means.

The republican war on women? What can I say, I am not a woman. I have no say. It is their lives, their futures, their relationships with us males and the young people that they (women) are ostensibly primarily responsible for nurturing that depends on our collective acknowledgement that we are all in this together. I'll venture a rash prediction here that if it can be shown that when Obama wins re-election that a significant majority of women supported him, there will be a right wing war on women's right to vote.

RE the communists in congress some clever jack should have come back immediately with the claim that there are at least 180 Nazis in congress. But of course the Nazi press would never circulate that claim.

I am amazed I wrote all this without once ever using the word meme.

Enjoy your cherry blossoms...

Sir Charles

KN,

Sadly the cherry blossoms are long gone. We had a very warm March and they peaked quite early.

Sadly, the flowering trees are a short-lived delight. We still have a few things blossoming -- the Dogwoods seem to be slower than the cherry blossoms, and the azaleas are just coming out. But I truly wish that we could have the trees in bloom for months rather than weeks. This is actually a spectacularly beautiful city for those few weeks -- very lush and colorful -- especially to one who grew up in New England, where winter really exacts a toll and the earth gets so brown and barren looking by March.

The notion of any of our members of Congress being hard core leftists is just too ludicrous to imagine.

West is quite insane.

KN

But I do think there are a considerable number of hard core right wingers in congress that would make Himmler blush.

By their works ye shall know them.

Or something like that.

Linkmeister

West wasn't the only kook to sound off today. Mo. Rep. Akin: "We don't have the votes to impeach Obama -- yet.

I would suggest to all the right-wing racists out there that they live in Hawai'i, where being white puts you in the minority and has forever. I'd suggest that, except that I really want to keep this state clear of people that stupid. We have enough idiocy already; it's just not usually manifested in race hatred.

oddjob

the Dogwoods seem to be slower than the cherry blossoms

That's because they naturally bloom later in the spring. The Japanese dogwood (a different species) blooms in late spring or early summer, so it's even later (& has a slightly different look since its "petals", botanically speaking they're actually not petals, are apically acutely pointed instead of being rounded with apical notches).

The Japanese cherry (I don't know exactly which one since there are many different varieties of them and this is one I've never before encountered) in front of my townhouse north of Boston is just beginning to bloom. It, too, is two or three weeks early.

Having grown up in the Philadelphia area, where spring-flowering trees are common and begin blooming in late March or early April with daffodils usually coming into bloom in mid-late March (and late winter-blooming bulbs earlier than that), one of the most frustrating things about moving to the Boston area for my new job (back in 1995) was adjusting to how much later all that wonderful stuff starts happening here. I love living near the ocean, but the downside is that spring usually (not this year) takes FOREVER to get going here! :(

oddjob

I truly wish that we could have the trees in bloom for months rather than weeks.

If you had land of your own (i.e. enough of such to consider planting a large tree on the property) I'd suggest you consider planting a southern magnolia (Mangolia grandiflora). A few of the commercially available southern magnolia cultivars are hardy as far north as Philadelphia so you should be able to find one. They don't bloom en masse in the way a Japanese cherry does, but the individual flowers are very visible on the tree because the tree's leaves are large and a very glossy dark green while the flowers are enormous (approx. 15" across) and white (& they smell so good!!) If I understand correctly they have a burst of flowers all over the trees in late spring or early summer, and then have sporadic flowers here and there on the trees for months thereafter.

One of the lessons the Japanese take from the cherry trees is drawn from their ephemeral quality. The fleeting quality of the trees' beauty while in flower is a reminder to treasure each day for itself.

oddjob

The notion of any of our members of Congress being hard core leftists is just too ludicrous to imagine.

(You mean as a voting bloc with clout, right? Wouldn't Kucinich be regarded as hard core?)

KN

oddjob - you're joking right?

Sir Charles

oddjob,

I think only in America would Kucinich be seen as a leftist. When I use the term leftist, I am thinking of someone who advocates for far greater control over capital than anyone in the contemporary Democratic Party does, someone who is pretty comfortable with the notion of nationalizing key industries, of having a very large public sector that is active throughout the economy, and, would advocate, if necessary, expropriating and redistributing property.

A relatively small segment of the Democratic Party could be characterized as social-democrats, as I would self-identify. But most of us would by and large not disturb too much of the private sector economy. We would advocate for single payer, but not seek to have a British style national health system, we would argue for more progressive tax rates and higher taxes on investment income, but would largely redistribute wealth at the margins -- higher minimum wages, guaranteed national income, universal health coverage, that sort of thing -- but by and large not engage in any full scale social leveling. We would follow Scandinavian type polices, which generally do not interfere with the notion of a robust private sector -- you just ask that the private sector contribute appropriately to the overall good of society.

oddjob

Ah. I understand now. Thx.

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