Wednesday Night Open Thread

"A Quick One (While He's Away)" - The Who

An absolutely ecstatic performance by the Who.  I think I could watch Keith Moon all night.  The surprisingly great harmonies are a revelation, especially John Entwhistle's falsetto.

Be thankful for life's small joys.  Have a lovely evening people. 

Comments

[big bad wolf]

all true. and roger is a marvel also.

rolling stone magazine's list of the top 100 rock era singers:

62 Lou Reed
61 Roger Daltrey
60 Björk

wow. that's seems off by at least 50 places.

[Corvus9]

Yep. In fact, Pete Townsend is the only member of The Who who wouldn't be in my personal top five of their respective instruments.

Oh, hell, let's do some lists.

Top Five Rock Drummers of All Time
1. Keith Moon
2. John "Bonzo" Bonham
3. Mitch Mitchell
4. Danny Carey
5. Ringo Starr

Top Five Rock Bassists of All Time
1. John Entwhistle
2. Paul McCartney
3. John Paul Jones
4. Flea
5. Geezer Butler

Top Five Rock Male Vocalists of All Time
1. John Lennon
2. Paul McCartney
3. Roger Daltrey
4. Robert Plant
5. Kurt Cobain

Top Five Rock Female Vocalists of All Time
1. Sinead O'Connor
2. PJ Harvey
3. Grace Slick
4. Janis Joplin
5. Dolores O'Riordan

Top Five Rock Guitarists of All Time
1. You Know Who
2. Duane Allman
3. Jimmy Page
4. Tony Iommi
5. And I suppose if I leave God off the list some quarters just won't forgive me but he never really did anything for me.

[Corvus9]

But how could I forget!

Top Five Rock Songwriters of All Time
1. Lennon/McCartney (duh)
2. Bob Dylan
3. Mick n' Keef
4. Pete Townsend
5. Kurt Cobain

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

Yeah, I was always a big fan of Daltrey -- thought he had range and power that really worked with the music. Evidently, not all agree -- Keith Richards for one was not a fan. I think Keith found him to be bombastic, unsubtle and unsexy reading between the lines of an interview.

Corvus,

You are an old school guy my friend.

Not being an actual player, my opinions on this stuff are totally subjective and are really based on a sound and an aesthetic that I like rather than the skill of the player in question.

My bias is towards rhythm-oriented players rather than virtuosos, so my favorites of the Sixties era would actually be Townshend -- whose big chords left lots of space for Moon and Entwhistle to fill -- Richards, and Lou Reed. Clapton never really moved me much either, although I think that may have more to do with his spotty songwriting. When he is working with good tunes as in the Derek and the Dominoes era, he is pretty compelling.

In more current times my favorites have a similar quality -- Johnny Marr, the Edge, Peter Buck, Billy Zoom of X, and Mick Jones of the Clash.

In terms of guys who play great solos and clearly are masters of the instrument I would vote for Richard Thompson, Mark Knopfler and Tom Verlaine.

And then there's Neil Young.

Among drummers of later vintage I would suggest Pete Thomas of the Attractions, Rick Buckler of the Jam, and Clem Burke of Blondie.

And for songwriters I would posit the following additions:

1. Leonard Cohen (maybe the best of all of them)
2. Elvis Costello
3. Bruce Springsteen
4. Strummer/Jones
5. Morrisey/Marr

[Corvus9]

Well, it's not so much that I'm old school as that I think there are a handful of bands from the sixties/early seventies who just never got topped in terms of skill or songwriting or influence. The Beatles, the Rolling Stones, The Who, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix Experience, Black Sabbath, and of course Bob Dylan. Those groups are all kind of the master classes of their own thing. But after that there is a pretty quick leveling out, and I don't see much difference in quality among the rest of the sixties and the later decades in terms of producing quality rock and roll. I mean, after those guys, I think the next class of rock bands are, you know Clash and Sex Pistols and Metallica and Slayer and Nirvana, and so on, all better than the rest of the bands from the sixties, with the possible exception of the Kinks. All of the eras have their good, bad, and great, the sixties just happened to also have the best sitting on top of that.

[litbrit]

Ooh, I am *so* staying out of this one. Not enough pixels for me to make my lists, most of which would contain FZ, of course, plus a number of people you guys might not have heard of, even, and you know, I don't feel like arguing at all about anything whatsoever right now.

My brain hurts.

My heart aches.

[Joe]

Richard Thompson is also a great songwriter as well as a great guitarist. Other great modern songwriters/frontmen: Jack White of the White Stripes; Black Francis of the Pixies; Paul Westerberg of the Replacements; Craig Finn of the Hold Steady; Stephen Merrit of the Magnetic Fields; Trent Reznor of Nine Inch Nails.

Also, for clever songwriting skills, Michael Penn is generally overlooked.

For unique male vocalists, Robert Smith of the Cure and Peter Murphy of Bauhaus bring a uniqueness to the genre that ought to be mentioned.

For female vocalists, Kait O'Riordan, originally of the Pogues, is generally totally overlooked. (Listen to the Pogues' version of Haunted from the Sid and Nancy Soundtrack and Sinead O'Connor's remake. They're both good, but totally different).

And although they are panned for being too melodramatic, I still have a soft spot in my i-phone (and my heart) for both Lloyd Cole and Tori Amos as both singers and songwriters.

Corvus, I'm not an expert on all things Beatles or on drumming, but I always read that Ringo Starr was the weak link in the Beatles. John Wesley Harding put the criticisms of Ringo in a song "When the Beatles Hit America." Is there a reason you think he's great (as opposed to being in a great band). I'm agnostic on the subject, and just want to listen to the Beatles again for the reasons you think Ringo Starr is great.

[big bad wolf]

that's a great way of putting it about the best sixties bands, corvus.

can someone explain to me why i love p.j. harvey, but find sinead unlistenable, except for "the emperor's new clothes," which i love?

are we cutting things off at the sixties? if not, i think elvis presley has to get some serious consideration as best male singer, ahead even of john lennon.

the fifties would also allow me to add chuck berry to songwriting list. "campaign shouting like a southern diplomat" wow. ray davies proably belongs to, which is why i never do top fives---i also end up with 15 or more in them.

clapton, it seems to my untrained ears and hands, lacks something inside. when he wanted patty so bad, he made a great album. since then, not so much. of late with his concetration on blues, he strikes me the same way wynton marselis does on jazz standards: yes, he can play, but the performance feels reverential, arranged for display, not for exploring or feeling.

plus clapton has to get a -1000 points for the acoustic layla. when dylan wrecks his own songs he does it gleefully, not by draining it of all life.

[Corvus9]

Sinead I see as the ultimate in terms of emotional complexity within the bounds of a melody. She is just as versatile in terms of phrasing as Bjork, but while Bjork is all about being offputting and following her odd elven ways, Sinead puts hers to work in capturing specific, complex emotional states. she just doesn't sound angry, say, but vengeful, with an undercurrent of vulnerability. Sadly forgiving.

Also, it's a sign of how committed to this approach that, even though she has more raw vocal power than just about any other singer, she almost never employs it, except on the one song that really calls for it, which is Troy. Holy shit, Troy. That song is terrifying.

PJ Harvey is just more consistently badass than anyone else. It's really easy to like badasses.

I too really like Cait O'Riordan, and wish there was more stuff with her singing. "I'm a Man You Don't Meet Every Day" is awesome. Unfortunately, she only has like, those two songs, and I felt weird putting her a list with that little output (of course I did that anyways practically for Grace Slick, but c'mon, White Rabbit). Ah, Elvis, why did you have to steal her away?

I would actually place Shane MacGowan high on my list of male singers, because I find him more emotionally affecting than just about anyone, but I don't know if that is just the bias of recent introduction or what.

[big bad wolf]

chrissie hynde, i'd put her on the female singer list.

joe, i think robert smith is great. the cure's music sometimes irritates me, but he draws me in.

except for a songwriter list, i don't think i'd put springsteen on any list except at the top of best live performer. i've long passed my high fidelity time, so long that high fidelity came out after i passed it. but i still can't quite ever trust fully anyone who doesn't like springsteen; sometimes the soul is greater than the sum of its parts.

all of which is to say, i really got a kick out of this essay: http://burnwoodtonite.blogspot.com/2010/03/whos-boss.html

[Joe]

Litbrit, an album which may match your mood is "Dark was the Night." It's a compilation put out by the Red Hot Organization (a charity dedicated to AIDS/HIV awareness and alleviation of suffering from AIDS). I always listen to it when i'm mourning the loss of someone.

[Corvus9]

Joe, as to Ringo..wow. You should have been here a while back. I posted a couple of epic comments all in defense of the awesomeness of Ringo as a drummer and complement to the Beatles. Here it is. Read through that thread. It's all in there.

[Corvus9]

Also, The '59 Sound by The Gaslight Anthem is a particularly good recent album focusing on loss and memory, especially the title track, which does an especially good job of being uplifting in the face of grief without trying to deny the power of the emotion.

[Prup (aka Jim Benton)]

I'm a Sixties guy as you all know, but I think the key to the Sixties was not the top level bands, but the incredible quality that was just beneath them, and the eperiments that the new technology (and the new pharmacology) encouraged. I'm just going to list a few of the bands, maybe 50 or so, to make my point, starting with a few of the better known ones, and just keeping myself mostly in America:

Grateful Dead, Big Brother (and Joplin's solo work), Jefferson Airplane, Lovin Spoonful, The Byrds, The Mamas and the Papas, Steppenwolf, Love, Ten Years After, Jethro Tull, Procul Harum, The Moody Blues, It's a Beautiful Day, Earth Opera, The United States of America, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Chicago (originally Chicago Transit Authority), Guess Who, Cream, Jeff Beck Group, Phil Ochs, Arlo Guthrie, Van Morrison, the Turtles, Traffic, John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, the Zombies, the Yardbirds, The Association, Iron Butterfly, Tina Turner (w & w/o Ike). the Monkees (yes, the Monkees, for "Shades of Gray" -- thanks, that's alwats been a favorite -- and more), CSN (&Y), the Hollies, Buffalo Springfield, the Chambers Brothers, Sly & the Family Stone, Crazy World of Arthur Brown, Sweetwater.

Then throw in the whole Motown groups and Phil Spector sound, then the old bluesmen like BB, Albert, Buddy, and Mississippi Fred who were rediscovered. Then add the following that you may never have heard of, but which deserve being known if they are still available:

Chrysalis (Sir Charles can testify that Spider Barbour, for that one album alone belongs on any list of best songwriters), Street (w Anya Cohen), Millenium, Euphoria, Broth, Silver Apples, Edison Electric, so many more whose one record wound up in the $2.00 bins.

It wasn't the top groups that made the 60s so great, it was the quality and variety of the whole scene.

[Corvus9]

Yeah, but Prup, you can compile such a list of quality for just about any era, if you look around enough.

I mean, the eighties had The Pogues, Butthole Surfers, Minutemen, The Melvins, Big Black, The Pixies, Metallica, Slayer, Guns N' Roses, Black Flag, Ministry, R.E.M.,Sepultura, Minor Threat, Mission of Burma, The Meat Puppets, Oingo Boingo, U2, Violent Femmes. I am sure Sir Charles could supply more, since the eighties are the period I am least knowledgeable about, but in addition to all those groups there were additional underground bands in the metal and hardcore punk scene (Dead Kennedies, Napalm Death) and the early works of bands were associate more with later decades (Pantera, Flaming Lips, most of the Grunge scene). But still, I don't think any of those bands are any less than the groups you listed above. And you could come up with just as good a list for the seventies and nineties.

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

I saw Sinead in the late '80s and she was stunningly good. Just a great, great show.

And I would definitely put Chrissie Hynde on the short list of female vocalists.

I know what you mean about top five lists -- I would add two more to my songwriting lists right off the bat:

James McMurtry
John Darnielle (of the Mountain Goats)

And yes, Chuck Berry kind of invented the genre, so I think he deserves a place in the pantheon.

Joe,

Richard Thompson is a great songwriter as well.

I think if you are going to put in Michael Penn, he has to move over for his wife, Aimee Mann.

Oh and I'd add Tilbrook/Difford to my songwriting list too.

[Sir Charles]

Hey Jim,

Good to see you back.

[big bad wolf]

tilbrook/difford that's a good one, SC.

patti smith, of course, on a couple of lists. courtney love, if we limit it to "live through this" and a few of the tracks on "celebrity skin," or maybe she deserves it for being so amazing on those tracks, sort of a dizzy dean type HOF career.

david hildago of los lobos, on the vocalist list. van morrison, too.

prince, on the guitarist list.

i really don't know what it is about sinead. obviously she can sing. i guess i think that she doesn't ring true to me. odd, since i liked polly jean when she was telling all those tales, as well as when she found love, and some of those tales p.j. sang were whoppers. hard to rationalize particular tastes, even to one's self

gotta go, the ipod's playing my song: tonight the bottle let me down

[minstrel hussain boy]

sinead is not only a very distinctive and evocative singer, she's a darlin'.

i have performed with her many times, usually in small, out of the way venues. our collaboration began during her "years of wilderness" after she, and rightly so, ripped up a picture of the pope to protest the rampant child rape that was being perpetrated in ireland by the catholic clergy.

later, after serving a suitable time of exile for the crime of telling the truth, when she would have a larger tour, she would take bits of time here and there, to find a smaller, quieter place and we would do our little acoustic sets.

she was feeding her bank accounts with the big stuff, feeding her soul (which is considerable, and lovely) with the closer contact and quieter music.

a list of bests that doesn't include van morrison is bullshit. if you ask clapton, springsteen, bono, elton john, and many other mega artists who their favorite is, and who had the biggest impact on their own art you'll get a nearly unanimous vote for the vanman.

springsteen says "when i started out, i wanted to be van morrison, i'm still trying."

[Sir Charles]

mhb,

That's cool that you've played with Sinead. I saw her in a middling size venue when she was on her way up -- probably about 2,000 people -- and she was charismatic and compelling. Not only a great voice, but great presence. (And really cool clothes to boot -- I remember a kind of red hooded cape, like something out of "The Handmaiden's Tale.")

You and bbw are both Van Morrison advocates. I certainly share your regard for him as vocalist -- also as a kind of idiosyncratic visionary.

[oddjob]

You want to know who the Minstrel has played with? Go check out his blog & its archives.

He's the real deal when it comes to being a professional musician. (There's a reason he ranks Van Morrison the way he does.)

[minstrel hussain boy]

van is totally cool, both to be around and to work with (you never work for van, even though he signs the checks, you work with him).

along with everything else, when i first was getting sober, van was a big supporter of me. tossing gigs my way, studio work and stuff.

idiosyncratic visionary, 'bout sums it up. the only person i work with that approaches van for complete mastery of many different styles and genres is linda ronstadt. she fucking owns everything she does, and she's cuter ta boot.

i must say that i have a real aversion to artistic "competition" and lists of the best this or that. you cannot compare guys like clapton with guys like zappa because they are so wildly different. clapton is the best clapton there is, and the same with zappa, or jimi, or angus, or yingwie, or mcglaughlin, or leo kottke, or jeff beck, or any of the other absolute virtuoso players.

what i look for when i dub greatness is that thing a truly marvelous player will do where you can listen, count to 8, and know who is playing because of that distinctive thing. then, they have to do it night after night.

one of the things i admired about the grateful dead is that they weren't afraid to go out and suck some nights. i'd hear them one night and they would blow my ass clean away, then, a month later i'd hear them and they would fucking suck out loud. the thing was, that would happen to them because they were reaching all the time. reaching for that indefinable magic shit that's out there waiting to appear. you can't force it, but you always have to be reaching.

without that reach and that risk there is no touching the sublime. and, like perfect sex, those moments are frozen in memory and experience.

but, that's the thing about music. you never have to apologize or feel the need to defend your choices. if there's a certain song that makes your hips move involuntarily, or digs its way into your head for a while. if there is that set of sounds that can instantly transport you to a time, and a place and that certain someone where everything came together in a package complete.

then. it's. good.

one of my favorite things in the world is my big ass collection of old 50's and 60's .45rpm singles. a lot of them are absolutely stupid ass bubblegum. mindless dweebie pop music. but folks goddammit, "itchycoo park" brings the memory of constanza garcia. she was fine and when i was in jr. high she was all i ever wanted to have in a girl.

what did you do there?
we got high.
what did you touch there?
touched the sky-y
but why the tears there?
tell you why-y-y
it's. all. too beauu teefullulul

[Don K]

big bad wolf - thanks for the link to the Bruce love...

I grew up in Jersey (okay, South, not North), and was in college when Bruce did the first three albums, then saw his live show in a small theater in New Brunswick when he was between "The Wild..." and "Born to Run". Bruce just was able to express the joy and frustrations of being young and alive more than anyone else at the time.

So that brings us to the topic of Best Live Band. I'll nominate the pre-78 Who and the E Street Band.

And mhb, I love your insights from someone who's in the business. "Itchykoo Park" is a great pop song, and that's enough. Sometimes a great two or three minute pop song is its own justification, and if you can put together one of those that's good enough.

[big bad wolf]

Don K, i adore bruce but the one thing he can't change for this massachusetts boy of philly parents is that the real jersey is the one from ocean city down to cape may :)

[big bad wolf]

agreed mhb. i would add only that talking of what we love and why we love it is a way of sharing it, particularly for those of us who grew up before we could carry the music in our hands (which is a marvelous thing, despite much better a turntable sounds)

and mostly agreed on the dead. they could be absolutely fantastic. i fear, however, that some of the flops had less to do with daring and more to do with other problems.

on van, it's just a whole different world he takes me to. while i love so much of his stuff the one that transports is the opening notes and then "if i ventured in the slipstream between the viaduct and your dream ...."

mostly, as i said above, i don't like hierarchical lists but when people ask for my favorite albums, i always say i don't know, there's too many, and they change, except astral weeks is always in there. i don't beleive that album was made on this planet :)

[Joe]

MSB, have you ever played with Robyn Hitchcock ?

[oddjob]

In which we are again reminded how thankful we should be that McCain is no more influential than he is.

[Prup (aka Jim Benton)]

Mhb, was Dahoud Shaar still with Van when you were with him? He was the percussionist for my favorite unknown band, CHYRSALIS, and was with Van on, I believe, ASTRAL WEEKS and MOONDANCE, but I'm not sure after that.

I've wondered what happened to him, because other than Spider Barbour and Nancy Nairn, who did work with FZ, the rest of the band disappeared.

[minstrel hussain boy]

i've worked with dahoud a few times. i'm notoriously hard on drummers, and dahoud and i were tight. i never found myself having to turn around and spit on his kit to grab his attention back to the song.

bobby kunkle has taken over the duty of his dad russ as my favorite drummer, along with bobby wharton.

bands do disappear, often suddenly. the band that i brought off the rez in the late 70's did that. when our contract with warners was up, folks drifted back to life as real people. bobby and i went into freelance gigging. bobby working out of l.a./san francisco and me working out of vegas. (back then his studio chops were way better than mine, so i went where the live shows were)

now, most guys like van don't bother with the expense of a band. when they have a tour, or a set of gigs, they hit the phones and assemble folks to order. it's much cheaper that way.

[oddjob]

This is a week later, but there's no more recent open thread on which to put this, and it belongs on an open thread:

Anti-abortion Rep. Stupak (D-MI) may be getting a primary challenge on his left.