Saddleback Presidential Forum

It looks like I was wrong; McCain didn't go down in flames at the Saddleback Church forum. I didn't consider how effective it always is to simply ignore the question and "answer" with excerpts from one's standard stump speech. 

There are a few things worth discussing, though.  I won't deal with every question, just those that have to do specifically with faith, because no matter what else was discussed, that's the frame for this event.  My perspective in analyzing the forum is that of conservative Christendom, namely the gut reactions Christians will have in watching this.

Obama started well on the "3 wisest people" question.  Christians like to hear men say they listen to their wives even when they know it isn't true.  On the "greatest moral failing" question, Obama hit two home runs in a row.  Framing his teenaged failings in terms of selfishness, of focusing on himself - very slyly giving a nod to Warren's "it's not about you" mantra - is exactly what Christians want to hear.  Obama's answer is known as "giving your testimony" in conservative Christian (CC) circles; it shows a personal intimacy with the forms and content of Christianity.  Obama's answer for America's greatest moral failing, quoting from Matthew 25, was pitch-perfect.  You cannot argue with that answer, you cannot distort it, you cannot claim that Obama doesn't love America enough.  And that he expanded it to apply to racism and sexism was good as well.

As for Obama's worldview, again he shows an ease with the concepts and vocabulary of American Christianity.  "Get myself out of the way" is very good.  The "acting justly, loving mercy, walking humbly with our God" is a reference to Micah 6:8, one of the most popular Bible verses within Evangelical Christianity.  That's just bloody brilliant rhetoric there, not only in knowing to use the verse, but knowing exactly when and how to use it.  Again, I think Obama really believes this stuff, which is why he's able to be so natural with it all.  He's actually read the Bible - unlike most Evangelicals - and it's important to him.

On abortion, Obama dodges the "baby rights" - nice framing, Warren - question very well.  Then he says, in effect, that he trusts women to make the right choices.  Since the majority of Americans wants abortion to be legal, very safe ground.  The late-term abortion stuff is still irritating, but Democratic politicians apparently believe that because late-term abortions always happen because of solid medical reasons, they can sound pro-lifeish without endangering fundamental rights.  They're wrong, of course, but given other things Obama has said on this it went better than I'd hoped.

As for marriage, Obama's position, like the majority of Democratic politicians, is simply unacceptable.  But he did manage to point out that his marriage is not threatened by what other people do, which is a theme Democrats need to focus on much more.  The failure of a marriage is the responsibility of those in the marriage, not anyone else.  Personal responsibility, people.

Obama's answer on stem cells was good; CCs are very concerned about it, but he took the bogus religious angle out of it entirely.

On the problem of evil, Obama did well to mention the evil that's done in the name of good.

I expected the worst when it came to faith-based organizations, but Obama did pretty well.  However, in response to the straw worry about religious groups being forced to hire people who don't believe the same, Obama should have asked, "If the focus is helping people, why does it matter what a person believes?"  Volunteers, of course, are not covered under any of this. Perhaps parachurch organizations could focus on getting Christians to give of their time and effort rather than receiving money.

One last thing for Obama, I liked his answer about taxes.  I like that he really answered it, unlike McCain, and that he pointed out how those who make $250,000 are in the top 2% of America, that if we want things like roads we need to pay for them, and how it's immoral to leave our debts for our children to handle.

On to McCain, my friends.

My friends, did you notice how many times McCain said, "my friends," my friends?  My friends, I didn't count, my friends, but my friends, does that verbal tic really work, my friends? 

And does the word "friends" now seem like some alien thing to you as well?

Anyway. . .McCain.  The Man Called Petraeus just might be The Man Called McCain's Running Mate.  If not, someone should ask him why he would choose anyone else. Notice also that McCain didn't mention his wife; again, that's close to being a pro forma answer to those questions.

McCain's greatest moral failing was the failure of his first marriage.  That'll play well enough, as will his contention that America hasn't always focused on greater things but we're still the best at it U-S-A U-S-A!

On what it means to be a Christian, McCain's answer was far too short.  It should have been his longest answer of the night, and it highlights how he doesn't know what to say.  His story about the Vietnamese guard showing compassion is touching, but you simply can't tell a story from 40 years ago and have it fully count toward one's spiritual status today.  There will be some lingering - though probably ill-defined -  discomfort over that.

On abortion, McCain thinks periods are murder.  Oops, I mean, "life begins at the moment of conception."  If we had any operative 527s this year, contrasting that statement with McCain's previous statements supporting Roe v. Wade would make a good commercial.  He's definitely trying to throw in with the hard-core anti-choice movement.

McCain opposes a constitutional amendment defining marriage unless a federal judge overturns a state law.  Which means he supports that amendment, really.  But it was a good answer.

Warren should have pressed McCain on stem cells.  If he believes rights accrue at the moment of conception, why is he able to say that he supports embryonic stem cell research?  Starting his answer with that declaration of support won't help McCain among the CCs, but the rest of it was ok.

I'll give you the transcript for McCain's answer to the problem of evil:

Defeat it.  WHARRGARBLE Osama blah blah blah ARGLEBLEARGH ramble ramble ramble.

The CCs will like it, of course.

McCain fumbled on the question of religious persecution.  CCs are very concerned about religious Christian persecution around the world, and think it's the US government's responsibility to do something about it.  Mentioning only the President's bully pulpit is a weak answer.

I'll mention the privacy issue only because McCain completely lost focus of where he was and what he was doing in order to mention his opposition to card check - without even coherently getting that across as well.  Even when his entire strategy is to stay on message no matter the question, he still can't quite do it.

I've said before that Barna Evangelicals are unreachable, so Obama's performance doesn't matter with them.  McCain's performance was acceptable, making it easier for them to support him.  However, he didn't really say anything other than his abortion response that would excite and motivate Barna Evangelicals to get out and vote for him. 

As for other Christian groups, I think Obama came out ahead because of his aforementioned ability to speak about faith in an intimate, dynamic way.  Obama talks like a Christian.  McCain talks like a politician being made to talk about Jesus.  Not a disaster, but not much help either.

Comments

[jacqueline]

i wish mccain would stop referring to me as his "friend."
as long as he condones the kind of sinister innuendos in his political ads
that are very unchristian in message, and as long as he does not denounce
some of the truthless and hurtful propaganda against barack obama, he cannot reach out in friendship.
these are not words or actions that entitle anyone to reach out in friendship.

i appreciated barack's response, that the people he is closest with and trusts the most, are the ones he would reach out to as a sounding board.
i would have thought that mccain might have said that his steadfast and everpresent wife might be more of a trusted sounding board than meg whitman, or a military commander....we can go to specialists for advice, but the people that we love and trust the most are often the ones that give us our courage and are our spiritual guides to do the right thing.

[jacqueline]

and just a second thought....

i may be wrong about this, but i believe that deliberateness, and meanings of words actually matter to barack obama.
i dont think he would use the word, "friends"...in the casual and constant manner that mccain does.
when mccain says, "my friends..." it feels salesmanesque and ingratiating...a sincerity that is a mile wide and an inch deep.
trying to create an artificial sense of good will when you are trying to sell someone something. a technique you might learn in a sales seminar....
perhaps this may seem like a small thing...but in a forum about faith and social~spiritual connections, the way someone consistently uses the word "friend" reveals a lot. about authenticity.

[K]

I stopped counting the "my friends" at nineteen because I didn't have much hair left to pull out.

McCain gives me the creeps. Seriously. In many ways, I fear a McCain presidency would be even worse than Bush -- and, let's face it, that's quite a threshold to cross.

[Lisa Simeone]

"Seriously. In many ways, I fear a McCain presidency would be even worse than Bush -- and, let's face it, that's quite a threshold to cross."

I can't believe it, but I fear you're right. I, too, have started to say that I'm afraid McCain might actually be more destructive than Bush. I still can't believe I'm saying this. But he is so scary.

[low-tech cyclist]

Is there anywhere online that one can view the forum? Or any chance it will be replayed on broadcast (not cable) TV? Everybody's talking about it, but I haven't even seen a link to a transcript, let alone a video.

[Snoskred]

I find the my friends thing to be horribly patronising. Mccain almost uses it as a comma and something to say while he's thinking of what he's going to say next.

I'm from Australia so I don't have a vote in this election but if I did, my friends, I can guarantee it would not be going to a man with a combover. I personally believe that someone wearing a combover has to have low self esteem, might be slightly deluded and possibly even mentally ill.

How can one get up in the morning and take ones hair which on one side probably reaches ones shoulder, and then gel and mousse that hair to the point that it will stick to ones scalp through gale force winds or even a tornado - and actually think that people believe it is real hair? If a man does not have the balls to accept that they are bald and cut off those scraps of hair, how can they possibly lead a nation?

I'm not joking.. and when you combine this delusion that people will believe that combover = real hair with the fact that one is probably suffering post traumatic stress from being imprisoned many years ago especially considering he seems to feel the need to raise that subject so regularly when it was quite a number of years ago.. can anyone truly in good conscience hand over the nuclear missile launch codes to this man?

Cheers,
Snoskred

[Ankush]

LTC: You can see it at C-Span's website. On the home page's Recent Programs module, there is a link for both the Obama and McCain segments.

[janinsanfran]

I support Obama, but in my opinion his response on welfare (as reported by AP -- didn't view it) was a form of race pandering. Wrote up my response here. I get touchy about welfare.

[low-tech cyclist]

Ankush - thanks!

Snoskred - as far as I'm concerned, the comb-over is a rather minor bit of vanity that is hardly unique to our time. I'm reading Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror, a book about Europe in the 14th Century. A fellow with a comb-over is described in that book.

[MR Bill]

Low-tech, "A Distant Mirror" is one of my favorite books to reread. I will now have to look for the combover...
And, for what it's worth, I went to North Carolina to see my parents yesterday. (It's only 60 miles) I generally avoid politics and most religion (they are Pentacostal, I got to the Unitarian Universalist church when I go at all), and they had watched the Warren show with great interest.
They are firmly in the Obama column, as are (I was suprised to learn) a lot of members of of their church, who have decided that the Republicans have messed up, are dishonest, and the party of the rich.
They were very offended by Walmart telling it's associates to vote for McCain. And think McCain a 'decent man', "it's just the people he represents that I can't stand" said my Dad. These are the classic Reagan Democrats, who are now 'Heath Schuler Democrats'..
I know Schuler is not particularly beloved (as a Blue Dog) but a change has happened in the solidly Republican South. It may be very different this November, if my folks are more that just an anecdote.

[low-tech cyclist]

Apparently McCain wasn't in Rick Warren's 'cone of silence' the entire time Warren and Obama were talking; he was, by his own campaign's account, in his motorcade, enroute, for part of the Obama-Warren conversation.

Obviously, only he and his aides would know whether he tuned in to a CNN feed in his limo. But apparently that would be impossible, because McCain's a former POW:

"The insinuation from the Obama campaign that John McCain, a former prisoner of war, cheated is outrageous," [McCain campaign spokesperson Nicolle] Wallace said.

Of course, McCain did in fact cheat on his first wife. Repeatedly. While a former POW.

Evidently there's a substantial time lag between the time one is a POW and the time one stops being a cheater. It would be interesting if someone would ask the McCain campaign just what the time lag typically tends to be.

[ivb]

Thanks for your observations.

According to a post by dday at Digby's blog, McCain's story of the guard drawing a cross in the sand may have first been told by others in relation to their experiences and in fiction.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/if-nose-grows-in-forest.html

[oddjob]

i would have thought that mccain might have said that his steadfast and everpresent wife might be more of a trusted sounding board than meg whitman, or a military commander

Given that he has, in front of reporters, called her a cunt who makes herself up like a trollop, and given that he has refused to answer the question of whether he has been faithful to Cindy, I'm not surprised he didn't mention her.

[brian]

My wife mentioned that CNN will re-run the program on Wednesday night (8/20)

[Merla Long]

My friends is such a phony salutation proves he is OLD
It is something my grandfather may have said when he was
at the pulpit
J.McCain couldn't answer the question of "who" is the middle class. Surprised all of you didn't "GET IT".
He wandered around trying to be funny with "i want all americans to be rich" statement. NEVER answering the question. Something CNN's Lou Dobbs won't answer either.

[oddjob]

On a related note, Sully has linked to this piece in the New Republic which really is worth a read. It's about Mark Salter, McCain's chief aid, speechwriter, other half of McCain's brain, and crafter of the McCain persona.

[Observer]

All the "cross in the sand" story tells us, if we accept it as face value, was that a Vietnamese guard was willing to risk much by showing his devoutness to a prisoner.

It doesn't say a thing about McCain.

Personally I disbelieve the story.

[DrBB]

Mention his wife and helpmeet? McCain? Not hardly. I'm curious how the CCs feel about Mr StraightTalk offering to have his (2nd) wife do a striptease for a bunch of rowdy bikers at the Sturgis rally. Oh, and just for yucks, let's imagine how unimaginable the sh**storm would have been if Obama had offered to have Michelle do the same.

[Nancy Irving]

I agree with the comb-over comment.

I notice that Rudy Giuliani got rid of his when he decided to run for the top job.

Have we ever had a U.S. president with a comb-over?

If not, would a McCain presidency thus be "historic"? :)

[mike m]

IVB..where did you get the comment that McCain called is wife a cunt and a trollop...Ive never heard this before...and if it's credible, i.e. documented, it should be in all the headlines....

[SL]

Nancy for your review (Article from Raw story about new McCain Bio). Feel free to delete if I have broken a rule.

John McCain's temper is well documented. He's called opponents and colleagues "shitheads," "assholes" and in at least one case "a fucking jerk."
But a new book on the presumptive Republican nominee will air perhaps the most shocking angry exchange to date.

The Real McCain by Cliff Schecter, which will arrive in bookstores next month, reports an angry exchange between McCain and his wife that happened in full view of aides and reporters during a 1992 campaign stop. An advance copy of the book was obtained by RAW STORY.

Three reporters from Arizona, on the condition of anonymity, also let me in on another incident involving McCain's intemperateness. In his 1992 Senate bid, McCain was joined on the campaign trail by his wife, Cindy, as well as campaign aide Doug Cole and consultant Wes Gullett. At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you cunt." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days.

The man who was known as "McNasty" in high school has erupted in foul-languaged tirades at political foes and congressional colleagues more-or-less throughout his career, and his quickness to anger has been an issue on the presidential campaign trail as evidence of his fury has surfaced.

As Schecter notes, McCain's rage is not limited to the political spectrum, and even his family cannot be spared the brute force of his anger.

Schecter, who also blogs at The Agonist, said in an interview the anecdote is "an early example of his uncontrollable temper." In the book he outlines several other examples of McCain losing his cool and raises the question of how that would affect a McCain presidency.

What should voters make of this pattern? In February 2008 Tim Russert succinctly described McCain on MSNBC's Morning Joe. A devilish grin spread from ear to ear as Russert, no McCain hater, leaned forward and spoke in a whisper, "He likes to fight." Russert got it right. But the big question isn't whether McCain likes to fight: it's who, when, and how.

The exchange between McCain and his wife was not reported anywhere when it happened, Schecter said (a LexisNexis database search confirms this). In 1992, McCain's mention in the national media revolved mostly around his involvement in the Keating Five scandal, and only local reporters closely followed his re-election bid.

McCain is well known for his rapport with the national media covering his presidential bid (he's jokingly referred to the press as "my base"), but Schecter said this incident was buried not out of fealty to the Arizona senator. Rather, it was uneasiness about how to get such a coarse exchange into a family newspaper, and he didn't fault the local press for not covering the incident.

"Members of the media are squeamish covering stuff like this so they let it go," Schecter told RAW STORY in an interview Monday. "Back in '92, when people use naughty words, [reporters] don't know as much what to do with it."

Much has changed since then. President Bush's reference to a New York Times reporter as a "major league asshole" was reported in at least 47 newspapers during the 2000 campaign, when the off-color remark was overheard, according to a database search. And more than a dozen newspapers have reported Dick Cheney's recommendation that Sen. Patrick Leahy "fuck yourself."

McCain and his aides have brushed off suggestions that his temper could impede his ability to perform the sometimes-delicate tasks asked of a president. The candidate was asked about his legendary temper last week on "Fox News Sunday," where he cited his ability to work "across the aisle" while in the Senate.

"You can't scare people or intimidate them if you're going to reach agreement with your colleagues and your contemporaries And I've worked hard at that, and that's what the American people want," McCain said. " The second thing is if I lose my capacity for anger, then I shouldn't be president of the United States. ... When I see the waste and corruption in Washington, I get angry."

McCain's campaign did not return a call from RAW STORY seeking comment Monday morning.

Schecter says McCain's anger is much more than a passion for the issues. One can only imagine what would happen if McCain were to try to squeeze that temper into the tight confines of diplomacy.

"The public certainly has to know what this guy might do as president," Schecter says. Examples like the ones in his book "should worry people, quite frankly."

[Jill]

I'm surprised you didn't note the passive voice McCain used in referring to "the failure of his first marriage." His marriage didn't "fail", he dumped it because a younger, prettier, and perhaps most importantly, wealthier woman came along. I wrote about John McCain's self-centered notion of Christianity here. I may not be a Christian, but I know someone who's just giving lip service for political gain when I see one -- and McCain is a mean-spirited, narcissistic man whose only use for religion is to gain him the presidency that he believes is his just payment owed to him because he was a POW. Funny how he's the ONLY POW IN AMERICA who believes that the presidency is the currency for what he endured.