« Sunday Random Walk and Open Thread | Main | Digiter-ado and Open Thread »

January 28, 2013

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

T.R. Donoghue

Thank you, very well said.

I'm a big fan of Prof. Loomis' blogging and he's obviously a very smart man. I'm certain that he knows more about labor history than I do. But I usually find his tactical advice wanting and his knowledge of the inner workings of today's movement as pretty detached from the day to day work I see.

A couple of weeks ago I asked in comments over there if he had ever worked in labor, apparently he has but the question was obviously a sore spot. It reminds me of the law professors who've never sat for the bar, brilliant folks with lots to teach me but they are missing a key component of the actual experience. They are just one level removed from so much of the on the ground day to day existence of a lawyer, or a labor union.

And Sir Chuck, I was thinking of you tonight and wondering your thoughts on the proposed immigration reform as it relates to the trades. Coming from a building trades family but working for the catalyst union for immigration reform leaves me conflicted.

Sir Charles

T.R.

How goes it friend?

I am very much in favor of immigration reform because I think it is the only plausible path beyond the present shadow economy.

I find the unwillingness to discuss the enormous damage being done to working class living standards by the use of undocumented workers to be a bit frustrating.

I think Loomis knows a ton about labor history and I really enjoy reading his stuff. But, yes, I don't get the impression he has much in the way of experience with actual tactical decision making.

Moreover, even if you have some generic union experience, it does not necessarily translate well into work with the trades, which is its own special universe.

Crissa

I think the rat has its place, but generally, it doesn't. Sure, the vast majority of non-union construction employers I've known gladly employ illegally. But what good does it do to point that out when those on the street have no legal way to help intervene?

janinsanfran

I see the rat used in hotel worker fights in San Francisco and I was just hearing from a friend the other day about seeing it in a Chinese restaurant fight in New York. It may have more resonance there.

Sir Charles -- I love it when you write about the building trades and the construction industry. I worked in non-union construction for 15 years in the 70s and 80s and find what you say about the employers rings true. These too are, relatively speaking, mostly little guys and many want to be good bosses because many have had bosses. Not that they can always pull it off and survive ...

nancy

Last evening 'American Experience' broadcast its episode about Henry Ford, which I found fascinating. I'd guess that few people have much recollection of how violent and coercive the industrial North continued to be, long after the reforms of the progressives. I was shocked at how physically brutal the enforcement of 'attitude' was at River Rouge, to say nothing of union talk and politicking of any sort. Father-son and son-surrogate story is the stuff of Greek tragedy. Ford finally yielded to unionization only because his wife threatened to leave him. He was willing to crash his company rather than relent. Sound familiar?

I found it a refresher in just what our corporate overlords wouldn't mind restoring -- in a sanitized way -- state by state, with the help of today's GOP. Seems like immigration reform should logically lead to a resurgence of union activity in solidarity. Especially if apprenticeships were strong parts of the package. So much catch-up to do -- there ought to be work for all.

A friend just returned from a trip to Seoul and reported that coming home felt like arriving in a second world country vis-a-vis infrastructure. American not-exceptionalism.

Sir Charles

jan,

Thanks. I sometimes shy away from writing about the trades because I spend so much time thinking about them and worrying about them in my daily life.

The guys enjoy the rat -- no doubt -- but I tend to see it as counterproductive these days.

nancy,

The brutality of Ford and his fellow plutocrats was pretty astonishing. They were murderers and thugs, with the respectability that money can buy you.

Your Seoul comments made me laugh, because it sounded just like a conversation I had with my wife yesterday. We flew together to NYC yesterday, into LaGuardia and out of JFK, and I was noting how decrepit and second rate both airports were and wondering what the many international travelers -- many from Asia -- made of this shabby gateway to the world's most prosperous country.

Joe S

Funny story about unionization here in Illinois. My old boss told me that when he first started out in school law, the school districts would negotiate collective bargaining agreements with the IEA (NEA affiliate here) because it was easier that way-- even though there was no labor relations act for public school teachers at the time. In the 1970's, the Republican governor of Illinois issued an executive order requiring bargaining with AFSCME for state employees- because it was easier. The Labor Relations Acts came after bargaining with unions in the public sector was commonplace.

Sir Charles

Joe,

That's interesting. One of the things that people often forget is that public sector unions are a much newer phenomenon than their private sector counterparts. I remember the State Police in Massachusetts unionizing during my Dad's time back in the late 60s/early 70s when I was just a kid. It really was a big step and it changed their lives for the better in really profound ways.

Phil Perspective

Sir Charles:
You're probably right but it's just the way McGarvey(I think) termed it. Sadly, shitty business school thinking has replaced what's best for workers. Maybe the guys you work with are willing to deal with unions but most places obviously aren't. Most employers, especially outside the building trades, would rather eat glass.

Sir Charles

Phil,

I totally agree that the business school babble is unappealing.

But I think the essential need for a symbiotic relationship between building trades unions and their employers is actually correct.

The comments to this entry are closed.