Final Debate Live Blogging

Here we go once last time. 

I am watching once again on MSNBC. 

Jeez Shieffer really mixes it up with a first question on Libya.  And basically gives Romney a chance to use a programmed attack on Obama right from the get go. 

"Al Qaeda type guys."

"We can't kill our way out of this mess."  Say it ain't so.  

"My strategy is broader."  How so?  Perhaps we can convert them all to the LDS.  

"Foreign aid and economic development.  Education.  Gender equality."  This guy is a commie.   

What the fuck is Mitt going on about?  He seems so jumbled. 

Obama rather half-heartedly drops a pre-planned attack.  Rather limp I would say. 

He does unleash a pretty good series of attacks on Romney's series of flip-flops on foreign policy.

"The rising tide of tumult."  (Great album title.) 

"Here's one thing I've learned as Commander-in-chief."  Muthafucka.  (That part was silent.) 

Schieffer's first two questions sound like they came directly from the Romney campaign.  Although Obama is handling the Syria question well.  (Not that it is going to sway a single vote one way or another.)

Romney claims that Syria is Iran's route to the sea.  Does Romney not realize that Iran has a large sea coast?  Does Romney realize that Syria does not border Iran? 

Romney -- basically everything I have been saying about Syria is bullshit.  We should have been "leading."  Whatever that means. 

Has Romney actually disagreed with any of Obama's policies?  (And does Mitt not remember the Bush Freedom Agenda?  Bush dedicated a huge chunk of his second inaugural to that very subject.)

I just noticed that there is both a World Series game and a Monday Night Football game on.  This debate is going to get a decidedly smaller audience me thinks. 

Polish missile defense.  That should really shake up the vote. 

Time for a little domestic talking point detour.  

If Schieffer was still alive, he would stop this nonsense.  From both of them.  It's really silly stuff.   

How the hell did we get an attack on teacher's unions in a foreign policy debate.  Holy crap.  Is he going to use drones on them?

Schieffer has completely abidcated control of this debate.  Let's make a policy that old white men be excluded from performing this role.  What the hell is the question on the floor.  We are now on classroom size.

And now Mitt is talking about the excellent relations he had with the foreign country of Massachusetts.  It is rich for him to take credit for Massachusetts' educational achievements. 

"We take program after program and we get rid of them."

I balanced budgets.  (Actually hedge fund guys are notorious for using tons of leverage to make money.)

The navy is smaller -- because one air craft carrier is the equivalent to one 1920s dreadnought. 

"We have fewer horses and bayonets."  Awesome. 

Time to pander to Israel. 

Blah, blah, blah, fuckin' blah.  If I wasn't live blogging I would be watching football and baseball. 

My sanctions would be even better. 

Doesn't Mitt remember that South Africa was our stout anti-communist friend back in the day. 

Oops -- I let my battery die.

Goddamn apology tour bullshit.  Well handled by Obama I think.  Is anyone watching this thing? 

Didn't Donald Rumsfeld note that democracy is messy? 

"Democrat" senators.  I fuckin' hate that.  Some day, some Democratic office holder is going to kick some ignorant Republican in the nuts for that bullshit. 

Is Mitt saying that Obama has done a good job in Afghanistan?  What was the point of that particular answer?

God Mitt is a dick when it comes to trying to game the debate rules -- he's such a whiner. 

I get my cell service from the Hikani Network.

"I don't blame the Administration for the fact that the relationship with Pakistan is strained."  Mitt is really having a hard time drawing differences with Obama in a way that is palatable to voters.  It is leaving him totally disarmed.   I think Mitt just got a little Malcolm X in his support of drones. 

Mitt looks like crap.  Really ill at ease.  I think he has had a truly piss poor debate.  I don't suspect that it will move the needle much. 

Obama just managed to work in steelworkers in Ohio and Pennsylvania into his answer.  A coincidence, no?  

Mitt should realize that when you owe someone a trillion dollars you actually have a whole lot of leverage over them. 

I call you a "currency manipulator."  Take that bitchez!

Obama hits him one last time on the auto bailout.

Solyndra? 

Not with a bang but a whimper does Mitt's debate season draw to a close. 

Jim Lehrer is cheering this debate on, as Bob Schieffer makes him look like a dynamo. 

Everybody loves teachers -- it's only their unions we hate. 

This was a really poorly done debate.  I thought Obama got far the better of it, but Schieffer was really awful and it made for a disjointed, rambling, and random set of talking points for far too much of it.

Christ Romney is spewing some serious random talking points in closing.

It is finished.

Thank Christ. 

And I leave you with one word: "tumult."  It's a bad thing evidently.

Rachel Maddow sums things up in lovely fashion: "Does soulless shape shifting have a cost?"

George Pataki is a really obnoxious character. 

One final thought -- there is an absolute unwillingnessin right wing circles to ever acknowledge defeat.  It is a stark contrast to the left, where people were hysterical about Obama's performance to a silly degree.  I just checked over at both NRO and the Weekly Standard to see if there was any negative reaction to Romney's rather weak performance and the fact that he seemed to step back from every hawkish position he has asserted during the campaign.  Nary a peep.  All were unanimous that Romney had won.  Period.  It is both a strength and a weakness I suppose.  But the complete loss of objectivity has to come at some considerable price. 

 

Comments

[kathy a.]

"new face of terrorism?" huh. "controversy." he's getting right to the fox news thingy. romney first. jeepers.

[kathy a.]

what. the. fuck? the middle east is a "dramatic reversal" of hopes, and of course the "threat of iran."

"we can't kill our way out of this mess." wtf?

[big bad wolf]

at the cost of less than two weeks in iraq

[big bad wolf]

mitt the national builder---let's give them more aid, and the rule of law

[kathy a.]

ummm. romney wants muslim nations to want to be like us; to encourage economic development, education, etc. and he is kinda dancing around suggesting that obama's not paying attention.

[kathy a.]

bam bam bam. "i know you haven't been a position to actually execute foreign policy, but every time you've had an opinion, you've been wrong."

i was a little worried about obama in the first seconds, but he's seriously on his game.

[big bad wolf]

of course it was half-hearted, any "the 80s called line" tough for anyone with half a brain to deliver.

[Sir Charles]

Yeah, I can't imagine suggesting that line to him. So out of character for him.

[kathy a.]

i just have no idea what romney is saying about syria, except possibly stating current policy.

[kathy a.]

romney says, "we should be playing the leadership role. but not on the ground." obama says, "that's what we are doing." and -- now he's into background and detail.

i kind of hate this debate, just on its terms.

[big bad wolf]

interesting again tonight to see how flustered mitt gets when he isn't obviously getting to play the boss.

i actually think schieffer's questions were okay. they gave obama the chance he needed, and judging by his responses, wanted to clear up the libya and syria stuff being slung around

[kathy a.]

romney's sweating. probably because he has crammed on this, and also he is not saying anything distinguishing.

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

It is not that the questions were illegitimate -- and I think Obama handled them well. It's just that to open with those two inquiries was to put Obama on the defensive immediately -- an advantage (potentially to Romney) who has no record to defend.

[big bad wolf]

i don't disagree, SC, but the litigator in me likes getting the tough stuff and bs out of the way earlier, so i don't mind them up front.

[kathy a.]

omg. i think romney just said that "even before" obama's term, we should have recognized the need for freedom in egypt. isn't that blaming bush?

now romney's perking up, talking about our debt being the biggest national security threat. holy freaking shit. who caused that debt?

[Sir Charles]

You're probably right. And certainly Obama got the better of the exchange.

[kathy a.]

human rights, human dignity, freedom of expression, and peace. is he a hippie, or what? i do not know what this man is about?

[paula b]

Is there an echo in here? Kudos to BHO for setting the agenda.

[big bad wolf]

this man is about doing what god wants---making him president.

glad he covered the polish missile crisis :)

[big bad wolf]

let's be fair---if mitt were as shamelessly changing the subject to domestic issues as obama has been, we'd be bashing him

[kathy a.]

finally, obama gets to speak again. and he's strong -- excellent relations in europe, the far east, africa. and bringing jobs back onshore. and -- yay, he's getting into domestic economics.

[kathy a.]

romney brought the domestic economy up first. so, there, bbw.

[kathy a.]

ha ha ha -- now we're off on "small businesses." and obama is solid on that and education. (ed really is an international thing, if we are talking about keeping on top of things.)

[kathy a.]

what about increasing the military? increasing the navy? OMG! romney says: go to my website. then he says, get rid of obamacare.

and now the asshole is saying, medicaid -- let the states do this.

oh, whoops. lets get back to the military. go, obama.

[paula b]

So proud of massachusetts---pardon me while I bard.

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

See my comments above.

I actually hate the practice of not answering questions -- and I don't care who is doing it.

But Jesus, Schieffer could not be lamer.

[paula b]

Barf.

[kathy a.]

OMFG -- he is going to "balanced budgets."

and now he's all for the navy. like hell. his priorities do not support what they need, or what vets need.

[Mandos]

The CNN Undecided Voter Graph is both hilarious and sad. The fact that it exists, I mean. So ridiculous.

[big bad wolf]

wow. obama killed the navy question

[paula b]

Commander in chief!

[Sir Charles]

Personally, I like horses and bayonets. (A truly nasty weapon -- used with far greater frequency in WWII than anyone can imagine.)

[kathy a.]

oh, iran thinks we are weak. APOLOGY TOUR! what a total asshole.

[kathy a.]

"nothing gov. romney just said is true." woot.

[big bad wolf]

mitt just had a look of yeah, you got me, i lied, this ain't fun tonight

[big bad wolf]

sun is the same in a relatively way, but we're older, shorter of breath and four years closer to death

[kathy a.]

obama seems to be on fire just now.

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

Secretary of State Roger Waters.

[paula b]

I see Mitt four years closer to oblivion.

[big bad wolf]

probably no one is watching, but that is kind of sad. did you see the salon article about the young woman from the last debate? she doesn't know which party is better on reproductive rights, though she thinks that is important. she guesses maybe obama since he has daughters. sad.

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

What people don't know is frightening.

I do wonder why she can't really find that information though. It wouldn't seem that challenging.

[big bad wolf]

the look obama had at the end of the last answer was the michael jordan super-competitor look.

[kathy a.]

did you just see romney demanding more time? scheiffer managed to stop him.

[big bad wolf]

she's 24. she's a teacher. the positions have been fixed since before she was born. just the tiniest bit of attention would have shown her the answer right in front of her. not picking just on her, but jeez she's talking in public.

[kathy a.]

ok. we're into PTSD and OBI. and helping vets get back to work.

[Sir Charles]

She's a teacher. Sweet Jesus.

[kathy a.]

oh, here we go. romney the peacemaker thinks that obama has not been reaching out enough.

i think obama is running a few circles around him.

[paula b]

Mitt shows no respect for other countries, cultures, religions.

Surprized that he supports drone strike.

He 's so accustomed to saying what he thinks people want to hear, I think he's playing up to BHO to please him. It's as if he can't help himself. GOP handler's must be dying.

[big bad wolf]

paula, that third paragraph is dazzling

[kathy a.]

i dunno. obama sounded pretty good on not sending jobs overseas. and now romney seems to be arguing that it's good for chinese workers to get jobs; he wants to crack down on stealing intellectual property, declare them currency manipulators.

romney's all trade imbalance. he is not talking american jobs.

[big bad wolf]

tires, too. know where they still make tires? :)

[kathy a.]

"but i've made a different bet on american workers." BHO

[kathy a.]

mittz: "i'm a son of detroit." and blah blah about managed bankruptcy. he is really sliding right now.

[paula b]

Cheshire cat.

[kathy a.]

BO: "you keep on trying to airbrush history."

[Sir Charles]

You know who else is a son of Detroit. Ted Nugent.

bbw,

I've heard tell that they make tires in Ohio. Any truth to that?

[paula b]

They did make lots tires in OO.

[kathy a.]

that darned silly person. "it hasn't worked." "i've met some of those people. ann was with some of them the other day. these last 4 years have been so hard."

what a freaking jerk.

[big bad wolf]

i can still see arnie palmer visiting the cooper factory from commercials three or four decades ago

[kathy a.]

R is freaking lying about increasing jobs, and increasing take-home pay.

[paula b]

GREECE!!!! I want to head toward Greece.
If you know what works why do 't you share it? Start with a big check.

[big bad wolf]

i think schieffer was slyly funny a few times, which leherer was not

[kathy a.]

how freaking many romney progeny are strictly necessary on stage?

[paula b]

A tie! GIMME A BREAK!

[Sir Charles]

paula,

Who scored it a tie? Ann Romney?

[paula b]

David WTF Brooks on PBS.

[Sir Charles]

paula,

The words "consider the source" leap to mind.

God Brooks is a whore.

[kathy a.]

you're kidding me. no, it's brooks.

obama did great.

[paula b]

Also Christina (Media Reporter) on PBS.

[low-tech cyclist]

Maybe this guy did.

[big bad wolf]

stunning fact of the night: debate ended 21 minutes ago and no one has emailed to ask for money! new record

[paula b]

L-tc, love it.

[kathy a.]

bbw -- maybe you aren't on enough mailing lists....

[paula b]

Whoops,Barrack says hey!

[big bad wolf]

oh, no kathy, that is not it. i get about 20 emails a day. they are slow tonight. it arrived two minutes after i posted, saying, as paula said "hey."

i am always amused when the president sends such emails. i took a lot of flack for such casual subject lines back in the day. the arc of the world is long, but it moves toward me ;)

[Sir Charles]

Ha!

[paula]

bbw---and i foolishly though it moved toward justice.

[Sir Charles]

bbw and justice are indivisible.

[paula]

so true.

[big bad wolf]

amen

[kathy a.]

the giants won, and are going to the world series. apparently a lot of people are dancing around in the rain. (i didn't even think they'd play today, but guess the game started during that patch of not-raining.) (yeah, yeah -- we haven't had real rain in 6 months, so the real news is that fire season is over. very over.)

[Crissa]

It seems ironic he's all about pointing out that Obama is supposed to have a 20T debt... And yet he offers no policy that'll make that number lower. He didn't even bother with a platitude.

[oddjob]

It is both a strength and a weakness I suppose. But the complete loss of objectivity has to come at some considerable price.

The price is revealed when contemplating Stephen Colbert's comment that "reality has a known liberal bias".

That comment should be non sequitur, but thanks to the right wing instead of being a non sequitur it's truly funny.

[low-tech cyclist]

The "horses and bayonets" meme is running circles around the Internet this morning, but I thought Obama's next line or two was even better:

"The nature of our military’s changed. We have these things called aircraft carriers, where planes land on them. We have these ships that go underwater, nuclear submarines."

We have these things called aircraft carriers. As TNC would say, Obama really sonned him on that exchange. Sweet.

[oddjob]

Jim Lehrer is cheering this debate on, as Bob Schieffer makes him look like a dynamo.

I didn't watch, but I figured it would be like that. Schieffer needed to retire at least a decade ago.

[oddjob]

OMFG -- he is going to "balanced budgets."

Did he talk about how many of them he submitted while he was governor? I'm sure if he did so that he also conviently neglected to mention that every governor of Massachusetts is legally obligated to do so: no exceptions.

[kathy a.]

romney's thing about the navy was so bizarre. obviously, the nature of vessels, and their equipment and weapons, have changed since WWI (also, since WWII, VN...). we have massive naval capability.

he really astonished me by morphing into mr. peaceful, too, when his whole campaign has seemed to scream that under his watch, we're headed directly for iran. (you know, that place that needs syria for a route to the sea [iran having two shorlines; syria being a couple of countries away from iran].) there was no effort to reconcile the peaceful romney with the one who wants to increase the military; no effort to reconcile keeping or increasing military spending with mr. watch-the-deficit. why would we need wartime levels of spending if we are not at war?

[nancy]

From PM Carpenter's live-blogging:

Romney's fixed, silly grin while Obama is talking reminds me of Steve Martin's Ruprecht character in "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels."

That's a keeper. :)

[paula]

Again, Cheshire cat.

[kathy a.]

his argument about the plight of average people these past 4 years obviously stuck in my craw because this is the fallout from the economic crash that occurred during the previous administration -- and the GOP's stated mission of non-cooperation with obama has somewhat hindered his ability to move things along more quickly.

but his "i've met some of these people" line -- that seriously bothered me. like those elusive qualified women, he had to go beat the bushes to find the shy little creatures -- whereas normal people KNOW or ARE people who have lost their jobs, lost their homes, can't find jobs, have had hours and pay cut. "these people" are in my family; they are friends, and the kids of friends.

while i'm on a rant, may as well mention government workers, who are some of "these people." the GOP's mission to shrink government (to the size of a uterus) coincides unhappily (at least in my state) with terrible budget problems -- exacerbated by the economic crisis, and (in my state) by the disastrous legacy of prop. 13. so -- we do not have enough teachers or firefighters or police officers or social workers; we do not have enough people staffing state agencies that people rely upon (DMV; medicaid; state disability insurance; and so on). there are huge cuts to the courts -- meaning courtrooms are closing around the state; people who are suing in civil court must bring their own court reporters; people who want divorces or restraining orders have to wait wait wait; and so on. employees at state agencies (who retained their jobs instead of being laid off) have seen their salaries cut.

has it never occurred to the GOP that government workers (and contractors) provide necessary services? and that when those workers are employed, they spend their salaries and boost the economy more generally?

i'm not arguing for blind retention of all workers, no matter how unnecessary or incompetent -- not at all -- but when years of cuts have reduced things to the bare bones, and then there is more cutting, that makes no sense. that hurts actual people -- both the employees and the ones they serve.

[kathy a.]

paula -- sweaty, red-faced cat.

[oddjob]

has it never occurred to the GOP that government workers (and contractors) provide necessary services?

Only when a recession occurs while they're in charge. In the past under those circumstances they have increased the number of government jobs.....

[paula]

Don't you wonder what the candidates say to each other when they shake hands at the beginning of each debate? They laugh and pat each other on the back like old friends, then go for the jugular.

FYI, I'm getting at least one call a day from the Brown camp telling me what a liar Elizabeth Warren is and today, I got three (3!) separate mailing pieces from Brown doing the same, complete with especially ugly photos. But, not one nasty call or attack mailer from Warren. I don't see the television commercials, so can't comment on that end of the campaign. She was out here over the weekend and I don't think she had to wear flannels or drive a green pick up to be accepted by the locals. Unfortunately, I do see quite a few Brown lawn signs, especially in the more rural areas. I attribute that to gun issues, but that's just a wild guess.

[kathy a.]

via maddow: an 8 year old's notes on the debate.

OK, this is funny: obama in FLA today, talking about romnesia. stage III! obamacare covers pre-existing conditions. ha!

[kathy a.]

for oddjob: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlnaYOv0DZY&feature=share

[nancy]

Maricopa County election officials send out voting information in Spanish with the wrong voting date -- now for the second time . Wrong date, conveniently after Election Day.

I guess that must be "taking one for the team." Pierce's margin of chicanery prediction.

[oddjob]

But, not one nasty call or attack mailer from Warren.

I'm not getting them from either campaign, but outside groups are mailing me nasty stuff about both candidates, as well as challenger Richard Tisei (who from what I gather is very slightly ahead of Rep. John Tierney, and also has been endorsed by the Boston Globe).