Debate Live Blogging and Open Thread

It's getting to be about that time.  Tuned into MSNBC to hang with Rachel and crew.  Please jump in as the night unfolds. 

They just showed a clip of the "there you go again" line from Reagan in the 1980 debate: what is infuriating about that little piece of theater is that Reagan was lying through his teeth -- Carter was calling him on his opposition to Medicare in the 1960s.  (Reagan's opposition was virulent.)  The press corps sucked even then, failing to make Reagan's lie an issue, but rather loving the perceived smack down of Carter.  So theater trumped truth, a lesson that became essential to the core the Reagan presidency -- and would later become the essence of Republican politics, a politics increasingly disengaged from reality.

Which brings me to another point that I've seen others hit on this week.  It is less the debate performance than the media's packaging of the event that tends to matter most in these events.  I remember the shock I felt when Al Gore's absolute thrashing of George W. Bush in the first debate was somehow turned into a Bush victory because Gore sighed.  Bush was as inept in that debate as any major politician I've ever seen -- and yet the media, who really did not like Gore, handed him a spectacularly undeserved victory.  Watch out for this tonight -- my sense is that the mainstream types would really like to give Romney a boost, if only for the sake of making the race more interesting.   

- Where is Obama's hidden teleprompter?  He seems to be talking without one, but I know that can't be the case.

- Romney needs to lose the smirk.  I don't think he can help it, it comes naturally to him. Oh, the "five boys" zinger!  Devastating.

- Romney's point about tax rates and small business is just utter nonsense.  I am, God help me, a small business man of sorts.  I am a part owner in a law firm that employs roughly 50 people and I am paid from the profits of it.  I can assure you that no one in my partnership sits around and says let's not pick up this particular client or try to do more work for existing clients because marginal tax rates for the highest portion of our incomes might be 39% rather than 35%.  It just doesn't enter into the calculus. 

- Obama effectively invoking Clinton and the Clinton years.

- Romney interrupts like an aggressive and whiny little bastard. 

- "I like Big Bird."  And you too Jim.

- When you put a war on a credit card I bet you get a shit load of miles.

- I would like to see Obama step up the aggressiveness a little.  I think he is letting Romney crowd him out a bit.  He needs to stick it to the Mittster.

- God Andrew Sullivan is overwrought and hysterical. 

- Not to sound like Sullivan, but don't concede that Romney sees Social Security in the same fashion. 

- Pretty good attack on private insurers by Obama.  Nobody likes the insurance companies. 

- Jim Lehrer is an unbelievably weak moderator.  He's a crappy questioner and he isn't able to control the participants, especially Romney. 

- I tend to think that this has been a fairly low energy affair thus far -- I can't see it changing much in terms of the dynamics of this race.

- Several people on Sully's site telling him to chill the fuck out.  (I appreciate that Sullivan actually posts these comments.)  My favorite --  "Take it easy. Obama seems like a normal person. Romney seems like he's been drinking Red Bull for 72 hours straight. It is not attractive.

- I have not noticed the deployment of any zingers by Romney.

- I actually think Romney has performed effectively -- with incredible mendacity, but effectively.  I am curious what the reaction will be. I tend to think the press is going to extol his performance.

I maintain that this is not going to move the needle at all despite the excitement the press may feel in the morning.

Oops, spoke to soon.  Air Force One zinger. 

- God the mendaciousness of Romney's presentation is really overwhelming.  Will anyone call him on it?  I can't believe Romney is taking credit for the quality of Massachusetts' school. 

- Jesus, Sullivan is a hysteric.  "Obama may have lost the election tonight."  I really don't think so.  I think this so overstates the importance of the debates.  If you don't believe me, ask President kerry.

I do think Romney outperformed Obama from a strictly aesthetic perspective.  I think Romney lied outrageously, but smoothly.  I would like to have seen more energy and passion from Obama.  But I don't think it will have much impact. 

What do you all think?

I saw someone describe Jim Lehrer as an NFL replacement ref -- pretty apt.  He was pathetic. 

- I think the reaction of Sullivan and the MSNBC folks was way over the top.  I can't imagine that this event is going to change the dynamics of the race anymore than the opening debates in either 2000 or 2004 did. 

I also think that there could be a backlash to Romney's extravagant lies during the evening.  I thought Ryan's speech at the RNC would be deemed effective despite its utter disconnect from the truth.  I was quite surprised at how much he got hammered in the following days.  When this thing starts getting fact checked and disected -- and when the promiscuity of Romney's ideological strayings gets scrutinized -- he might end up not looking so good.  I think the Obama people need to push on this in the post-debate press coverage.  Romney literally seemed like he would say anything that might present him with a momentary advantage tonight, even if it contradicted a whole lot of what he has said during the campaign.  I think there is vulnerability associated with that kind of move.  I also think he might have come off as a hyper-aggressive jerk to some.  It is difficult to assess as a fairly aggressive high information voter myself.   

 

 

 

Comments

[kathy a.]

oh, good choice. http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/

[kathy a.]

jim leher -- announcing the rules. emphasis on specifics and choices.

[kathy a.]

obama's beginning was fine. good. i wish he'd talked about young people who need jobs. people laid off. but 2 minutes is not a lot of time.

excuse me - -but how does romney know about small businesses?

[kathy a.]

so - -i think romney squeaked or something while obama was talking. so he was asked if he had a question to ask the president. he is spitting zinger-lets. so far, no question.

[Sir Charles]

I believe he has harvested several small businesses over the years.

[kathy a.]

harvested; not created.

romney wants to reduce tax burdens on middle, but won't cut for the top. he doesn't explain this.

[kathy a.]

romney just swacked again while obama was speaking.

the stupid captcha is a real pain in the ass with live blogging.

[kathy a.]

squacked.

and wtf? he has five boys, he is used to people saying things that aren't supported???

he is firm on not raising taxes on upper income. lower the deductions etc. blah.

[Sir Charles]

kathy,

I hate the captcha. I wish I could get rid of it.

[kathy a.]

WTF. romney just ran over jim leher. and the rules. he is looking like a bully frat boy. and he is not shutting the fuck up when the moderator is trying to stop him.

[kathy a.]

wtf, wtf? he will eliminate all programs unless it is worth borrowing $ from china?

how is that a set of rational and transparent guidelines?

[nancy]

Mitt seems very very hungry. I'm sure he is. The President seems weary, as I'm sure he is. I find Romney's condescending phony-smile facial expression intolerable.

[Sir Charles]

Not to give Sullivan any credence, but I do want Obama to try to step up his energy level a little bit.

[kathy a.]

ooooof for solyndra; raging scream for medicaid block grants.

[kathy a.]

think obama's getting in his roll now, talking about his grandmother.

[kathy a.]

god damn romney. he is lying about medicare cuts.

[Sir Charles]

I think Obama needs to punch back a little more effectively.

[kathy a.]

yeah. i think i'd be punching jerkface.

romney has been coached to the point where his obnoxiousness is pouring out of his ears.

[nancy]

Romneysmug. Ugh.

[Sir Charles]

I wish I had a better sense of how Romney is coming off to the less well informed voter.

[kathy a.]

OK, i can tell already that i'm going to blow up soon. they are on "obamacare," and romney starts with "ooooh, tooooooo expensive." expensive things hurt families.

what an asshole. and now he is onto "an elected board that will tell people what treatments they can have."

[nancy]

Yes, Governor -- "families" -- that would be all those 47% moocher families he's on record caring so much about.

[kathy a.]

bull-pucky about insurance companies bringing costs down in a fair and effective manner. my experience is that insurance companies usually try to deny benefits for the freaking hell of it, and backing off when consumers fight back.

[kathy a.]

not only is romney rolling completely over time limit, but he just invoked the 10th amendment -- this is a huge red cape for teabagger types.

[kathy a.]

oh my dear lord. he starts with schools, and goes on to go, guns, and sure yeah he cares for old people and ya know pursuit of happiness.

but pursue dreams! "trickledown government approach!" really, it is good i am a nonviolent person.

[kathy a.]

i think romney's closing is going to be blown out of the water. what a freaking jerk.

[big bad wolf]

that is the most lies i have ever heard in one year, let alone 90 minutes

[Sir Charles]

bbw,

I agree.

But Obama was too passive for my tastes. I think he is going to get a lot of flack for his performance.

[nancy]

Got three e-mails from the youngest in the family. He was dismayed. What did Mr. and Mrs. Just Recently Tuning In think? Lies, lies. But unaddressed lies. Word count went to Romney. Awful.

[kathy a.]

i think O did fine. no, not on fire. this was romney's big appearance, and he looked like a jerk. [well, to me.]

there is a saying about letting someone have just enough leeway to show his true self -- given that there are 2 more prez debates, i think that tonight the president was taking measurements.

[big bad wolf]

he was too passive. romney was hyper---the red bull comment was dead on---but if obama was underplaying to try to make romney look bad, i think he went to far. that said, i thought obama was too understated against mccain four years ago.

[Sir Charles]

See my comments above.

I am not sure how this will play out over the next couple of days.

[oddjob]

Obama is usually placid at these things. It's both a strength and a weakness. If he was lively he would run the risk of looking like an "angry negro". I think Sullivan forgets that - really, really, really easily.

More often than not as Obama lets the assertions fly without rejoinder in the long run he ends up winning as the opponent hangs themselves.

Whether he wins this time remains to be seen.

[oddjob]

(opponents hang themselves)

[janinsanfran]

I would describe Obama's performance as dampening. But then, that's often how I've experienced his tenure in office. Yet when you add up what's been accomplished, he's achieved quite a bit.

Let's just hope this mode works. This weak performance gives the media a chance to tout the revived sport aspect of the election and they'll love that. But we all need Obama to win. This ain't a game.

(Late to the party because we recorded it ... had to go do a Prop. 34 campaign thing in real time.)

[Sir Charles]

janinsanfran,

I think your analysis is spot on.

I was also reminded this morning of a variation on a joke that used to be told about Warren Christopher -- this wouldn't have happened if Jim Lehrer were still alive.

[kathy a.]

oddjob has an excellent point about obama needing to not look like an angry black man. (particularly with all the BS being pumped about him being an anti-american revolutionary yadda.)

this format is not great for responding to a breathless stream of lies, either. romney came out of the gate swinging, and stringing together all these assertions (and running right over his time). obama then had 2 minutes to respond. he can't look angry; he can't say liar liar pants on fire; and he can't coherently address everything in that time. probably he will step up his game next time, knowing more about what to expect.

one down side for obama's prep -- aside from, ya know, running the country every day -- is that it must be hard to predict exactly what romney will say. the guy continues to reinvent himself.

i do not like romney's style; think he came across as an entitled bully. more importantly, he is full of crap on substance. his numbers do not work. spitting out a couple of anecdotes about people who are looking for work does not a jobs plan make, nor does it make him a man of the people all of a sudden.

and he said some enormously unpopular things, in a jovial and confident manner, as if they were some kind of gift to humanity. he was very firm on not raising taxes for the wealthy; and not at all clear about where he meant to get more money by "closing loopholes." (his kill big bird + PBS example was idiotic, and would not begin to solve the deficit; but it may have inadvertently disclosed the truth -- that he will kill virtually everything.)

his talk about obamacare made no sense. it worked in his state; the provisions are already helping people; and killing the program will not save money. plus, he invoked "panels deciding what care you get," which is a flat lie.

and medicare? lucky me -- i'm just a tad too young to be comforted by his assurance that nothing will change for current seniors. and furious about the lie that obama is stealing from medicare to fund obamacare. even more furious at the completely false assertion that insurance companies will naturally just bring costs down.

[low-tech cyclist]

I fell asleep next to my son's bed while getting him to bed last night, and by the time I woke up, it was well after 10. I think I'm just as glad I missed it, based on the reactions.

My best hope going forward is that the Obama campaign can turn Romney's debate performance into a devastating series of ads. Seems there should be some opportunity there.

[kathy a.]

romney told 27 myths in 38 minutes.

[big bad wolf]

i think there is a big difference, not a fine line, between "angry black man" and too understated. the problem, i think was not that obama was not loud, or aggressive, or alpha. the problem was he did not come across as firm and focused.

obama did not have to raise his voice to parry some of mitt's more outlandish statements. he needed only to respond, preferably by putting the key sentence first in his answer. not responding to all of romney's statements was a wise choice---the president does not do tit-for-tat. the president does, however, need to firmly, if quietly, refute the main attacks. in particular i thought he let romney hang the 716 medicare cut lie on him, and that he missed an easy one in not pointing out that the reason the ACA requires coverage up till 26 is that it is unaffordable otehrwise, particularly for those with preexisitng conditions, such as the autistic child romney talked about in the same breath.

[kathy a.]

yeah, obama was off his game. i still think part of it was negotiating the time limits and so much prevaricating material.

i suspect -- can't know -- that he actually was very very angry. romney's ready to put the country under the bus, AND he is blaming obama for the mess inherited. plus, the frat boy demeanor. and then all the lies.

still, obama is usually better on his feet. he is a quick study, too, so i expect the next one to be better.

[nancy]

Post-debate President on Day One .

"We had our first debate last night, and when I got onto the stage I met this very spirited fellow who claimed to be Mitt Romney," Obama told the crowd of roughly 12,300. "But it couldn't have been the real Mitt Romney."

The "real" Romney, he said, has traveled the country promoting tax cuts for the wealthy, education plans that would hurt teachers and was a pioneer of outsourcing jobs overseas. However, Wednesday night, Obama said Romney reversed those views because he "doesn't want to be held accountable for the real Mitt Romney" and "what he's been saying for the last year."

After sleeping on it (and tuning out the punditry) I have to surmise that, in part, what we saw last night was Obama containing a sustained slow burn along with a strong unexpected sense of disgust.

[kathy a.]

and now, a musical interlude called "one term more."

nancy -- at least sully stopped hyperventilating since last night.

[nancy]

Bird Bird jokes and photoshops are all over the net, which I am enjoying immensely.
Romney's zinger™ was a loser two-fer -- for all of the parents with fond memories of their child's time spent in the company of the Children's Television Workshop, and for the young voters for whom Big Bird and crew evoke a time of happy innocence. That was a big zingerdud.

I think Lance Mannion's assessment of how Mitt's performance likely resounded with women is correct and will turn out to be the surprise big blowback for The Romney act in Denver. Most women at one time or another have suffered having to be around the kind of jerk as was Romney last night -- rude, arrogant, humorless, impressed with himself, lying, condescending, smug and entitled. Now we can add *cute*. We really really don't like the type. Not that men do, but I suspect they can more quickly channel their distaste to somewhere less personal.

[kathy a.]

obama returns, just hours after the debate, strutting his stuff. the transcript is here, along with some great stuff about the "gish gallop" -- flooding the debate with way too much misinformation to refute in that format. [h/t to ablc, via balloon juice.]

the big bird jokes and visuals today are great. nancy's right about mitt acting like the stupid entitled frat dude who just rolls over others because he thinks that makes him look especially manly, and mansome, and take-charge. whereas, normal people think that just makes him look like a jerk.

[paula]

Too jet lagged to participate in this discussion but here are a few thoughts I live-tweeted last night:

Romney misled voters by asserting $700m+ cuts to Medicare. That number reflects savings on duplicate benefits, thanx to Obamacare.

Presidential debate is not American Idol. No extra points for song choice/outfit, but competence/character counts.

So, Obama is responsible for GOP blocking legislation he proposed? Kind of like being responsible for your own rape.

Is this the same Gov. Romney who slashed state funds to public and higher ed in the middle of the school year?

Suddenly Mitt is proud of being governor. Many of us remember how he used that office to mock/humiliate residents.

"We had meetings every Monday morning in Mass." Was that because Monday was the only day you were in the state, Governor?

Is breast cancer in Alabama different from breast cancer in New York? If not, why should states determine best treatment/prevention?
____________________
Looks like the media is jumping on Mitt for some of these bald lies and obfuscations. About time.

[Sir Charles]

nancy,

I wondered about that very thing. Romney steamrolled his way through the debate like an entitled jerk trying to seal a deal. It struck me as something that might be more alienating to women -- who've seen that movie before -- than to men.

I think Mannion's take is pretty good.

I am also feeling like Romney's "victory" really was built on a foundation of sand -- lies and momentarily convenient stances are not going to wear well. Especially with the kind of liberal media infrastructure that is available to fact check him.

kathy,

I think the Big Bird reference was a huge mistake by Romney. People like PBS -- especially the kind of suburban mothers who Romney is already struggling to hold.

Paula,

Again, I think Romney's victory may prove to be a very short lived one as the fact checking picks up momentum. To say he lied promiscuously is an understatement.

[paula]

An Amherst friend's tweet:
Dear America, You REALLY don't want him as President. Trust us, Massachusetts

[oddjob]

Suddenly Mitt is proud of being governor. Many of us remember how he used that office to mock/humiliate residents.

HE MOST CERTAINLY DID.....

He started in on that at wingnut gatherings just a year or two after the Supreme Judicial Court ruled that Massachusetts same sex couples had the same rights to marriage as straight couples. That was his entry into the GOP base.

[oddjob]

I think the Big Bird reference was a huge mistake by Romney.

It's preaching to the wingnuts but it's not going to win him any fans with everyone else. Hell, I'm 52 and I'm still able to remember watching early Sesame Street broadcasts when I was nine years old. I remember realizing the show wasn't really trying to talk to me, but it was sure talking to my younger brother and sister!

[paula]

Re: Romney and Massachusetts. Wash Post, Sept 26, 2005: Massachusetts Governor Makes His State the Butt of His Jokes. http://wapo.st/PVf3ok

The guy's a laugh a minute.

[Sir Charles]

oddjob,

That's funny -- my younger sister, who is now 49 was a Sesame Street kid. I was nine like you, a little too old.

[nancy]

Paula. :)

*****

I wonder if the lasting Romney takeaway from the previous evening could end up being this oddly enough, in the future known as the "Big Bird" debate. I really wish Fred Rogers were still here to respond to bad Mitt and his notion of "neighborhood" ie. mutual, worthy and agreed upon democratic interests and responsibilities. Which, of course, wise Mr. Rogers would have declined to do.

[oddjob]

My younger sister also is 49. My brother's 48.

[oddjob]

You could be wealthy if you'd collected a dollar every time some wingnut ranted on about killing Uncle Sam's contribution to Sesame Street.

[nancy]

Well, the Europeans are certainly puzzled over l'affaire Big Bird . Who can blame them? Le Gros Oiseau? Quoi?

My son sent me his fave . Thumbnail. :)

[kathy a.]

here's the deal with big bird. public television provides programming that is NOT stupid cartoons, stupid sitcoms, violent shows, etc., and is NOT run for profit (so that one avoids seeing 8 billion ads per hour).

and this is important; but it is especially important for young people. the children's programming (i'm out of date, but examples: sesame street; electric company back in the day; mr. rogers) focuses on skills and tools that kids need, while being entertaining. we do not have universal preschool; we mostly do not have full-time nannies. so a show that can teach kids reading and math fundamentals, can show them music and ideas -- that is a good choice for when parents also need to be doing stuff that needs doing, like cooking dinner or doing laundry and etc. these shows help kids be ready for school, and be more ready for life.

i would not expect mitt to understand that commercial broadcasting does not fill this important option.

[Sir Charles]

nancy,

Oh my God, I am crammed into a full plane that was three hours late leaving, and I laughed my ass off at that picture your son liked. Jesus, I have tears in my eyes.

And Le Gros Oiseau is priceless.

Although Sesamestrasse is a little disturbing.

[beckya57]

Hell, I'm 55, and I watched Sesame Street, even though I was supposedly too old. I like the Snuffleofgus best.

[kathy a.]

LOL, becky! we are age-mates. i mostly watched because my sibs range to 8 years younger, and then there were my own kids. but i heart snuggelofogus, too.

[nancy]

President Romney and his team viewing live video of raid on Big Bird's compound. h/t Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Seems that the staffer who wrote up that zinger™ might have heavy-duty resume cleansing to do. Axe Big Bird, Elmo and Reading Rainbow. Heck. Surefire.