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June 24, 2012

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Prup (aka Jim Benton)

l-tc: I agree with you that the filibuster should be preserved in a better format, and have my own suggestion which I'll get to -- and have mentioned repeatedly. But before I get to that, I should say that i think you overestimate the quorum calls as the reason for the 'silent filibuster.' They may be important, but the key was the change that was made when the number for cloture was dropped from 2/3 to 3/5.

Previously, the key to a filibuster was that it would bring the Senate to a halt, making any business impossible while it was going on. There could be only one subject on the floor at any given time, and thus nothing else could go on when the Senator or Senators were talking. It was, deliberately, both an endurance test and a test of which side wanted its result more.

But now, the Senate can and does, hold votes on motions stating that 'the first two hours will be spent on [the filibustered bill] and then it will be put aside and the Senate will take up other business.' At this point there is no real need to make the Senators go through the motions of talking, just hold the cloture vote.

That's not gonna be reversed, so I don't see the quorum call bit being that important -- Senators have dealt with this type of quorum call daily, even just as a way of stalling to finish negotiations, back when negotiations were possible.

So I again suggest the Lieberman-Harkin proposal. The first vote should requore 60 votes, but then, after a stated period, there would be a second vote, requiring 57, then a third requiring 54, then any after that requiring 51. (I'd add the proviso that if, at any time, cloture fails to receive 50 votes, it would kill the bill. And I wonder if there would be someway to allow the 'classic filibuster' as well, with the old rules, but I haven't thought about this long enough to know if a scheme would be possible.)

Anyway, I do worry about events stampeding a Congress into rash decisions -- Gulf of Tonkin, anyone -- and think that a measure forcing delay but not requiring a super majority to pass anything, like we have now, is worth keeping. Sometimes giving a Senatior a chance to hear from his constituents or to wait till things settle can save some bad mistakes.

Sir Charles

I think I would like to see 55 votes be sufficient for cloture and for all presidential appointees to get an up or down vote. (I know the latter will cause some concern on our side -- after all it has been used to stop people like Bolton from being confirmed, but I am generally of the view that presidents should for the most part get to pick their personnel.)

Not sure what I think on the Supreme Court picks. I am generally anti-filibuster there as well -- but I could imagine circumstances when I might change my mind.

nancy

ltc -- Ouch. This is beyond my wonk-grade.

I must and will try again later though.

nancy

Heh. Captcha. unnecessefarry

low-tech cyclist

Prup - Lieberman-Harkin is basically the mirror image of my proposal, because under that set of rules, the majority could get anything to an up-or-down vote if it wanted it badly enough; the problem is that in getting there, the minority can basically eat up a lot of Senate clock - so what the majority can't do under L-H is fill subcabinet positions and District Court judgeships, and pass legislation that's needed but not particularly earthshaking.

We experienced a similar problem to this in 2010 with the Senate rule that allows either side to force 30 hours of debate on a bill after cloture is passed, but before the up-and-down vote on the bill itself. (Another rule that desperately needs to be deep-sixed, whether or not filibuster reform itself ever happens.) Rules that allow for every little thing to be turned into a major bit of stallball aren't reasonable.

I still don't see how you're saying the quorum requirement doesn't play into the existence of the 'silent filibuster.' It's true that the Senate leadership can now move on to other business while a filibuster is in effect on one or more bills, but they could keep the filibustered bill on the floor. But if they did, they'd still need 50 Senators close enough at hand to respond to a quorum call,, and the minority would only need to keep one Senator on the floor.

And I think in an era where the minority is perfectly happy to see the Senate grind to a halt, having the old rule that would make that happen anytime you had a filibuster would result in the Senate grinding to a halt even more so than it already does.

That old rule helped reduce filibusters in the days when the minority had things they hoped to gain from legislation, and they wanted bills to pass that had sufficient goodies for their states, favored interests, etc. so they couldn't just gum up the works forever. That was your father's GOP (and the Dems, then and now). But it's definitely not the GOP we have now.

low-tech cyclist

SC - I'm not crazy about deciding by category what can and can't be filibustered. I think filibusters of judicial nominations are warranted when the President nominates candidates who clearly don't belong on the Federal bench - as was true of some of the Bush nominees that the Dems filibustered. And I think Executive Branch positions that include representing the U.S. to the world (ambassadorships, State Department) as part of the fundamental job description deserve Senate advice and consent. I'm not sure I could draw a set of lines that I'd be happy with.

That's why I think the goal should be to preserve the filibuster, but in a fashion that makes it fundamentally difficult to use more than sparingly. If it's constructed that way, then that construction itself will limit filibuster abuse to a handful of cases. You want to filibuster a Supreme Court nominee? Knock yourself out, if you're ready to put in the time.

But you'll just have to do it again with the next nominee, and the one after that - and ultimately, it'll just be more time than you're willing to part with.

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