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August 16, 2010

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Joe

It seems as though there is a major problem with Obama addressing the New York Cultural Center issue. Namely, a big chunk of Americans (maybe even a majority) see Islam and/or most Muslims as enemies. This makes a principled stand very difficult/nearly impossible. Josh Marshall had a good post on this the other day.

I was looking back thinking about this after reading Marshall's post. I'm 39 years old and nearly all my memories associated with foreign policy news stories relate to America fighting one Muslim country or another. In the late 1970's it was Iran (as well as the Oil Embargo). In the 1980's, Iran and Lebanon and Libya. In the 1990's, Iraq and Somalia. In the 2000's Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, and to some extent, Saudi Arabia. That many conflicts combined with the incessant use of terrorism creates cultural baggage. I really don't think Obama could have done anything more than he did in light of the cultural context of the situaion.

litbrit

I'm with you, C.

And I'd add, I seriously question the "wisdom" of the way our government kowtows to certain factions of American power and industry (Big Oil, Big Israel, Big Defense) and meddles in the affairs of--oftentimes with multiple megatons of expensively lethal force--so very many Middle Eastern and/or Muslim countries.

Perfect example: Saddam Hussein. He was useful, until he wasn't.

It would behoove us to remove the damned beam from our own nation-occupying, government-meddling, oil-controlling, brown-people-bombing eye before pointing out the speck in someone else's wisdom cornea, you know?

Davis X. Machina
But most of my despair is over the degree to which a great deal of the country has embraced the malevolent and irrational politics of the right wing -


Things aren't any worse now than then, or better then than now.

They embraced, embrace, will embrace, malevolent and irrational politics because they are irrational and malevolent. Any politics not predicated on the fact that people in the aggregate are shits is doomed to fail.

The game is rigged, someone got to the refs, and the forces of darkness always have the home court advantage.

Not that that's an excuse not to try. It reason to expect not to succeed.

Sir Charles

Thanks Davis. I'm going to go put my head in the oven now.

:-)

Corvus9

1. You misspelled Steve Benen's name.

2. How, precisely, is saying that "I was not commenting and I will not comment on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there" the equivalent of "questioning the 'wisdom' of them actually exercising that freedom." It's sounds to me like he is saying he will not voice an opinion on that subject. As well he shouldn't. It is not the place of the president to voice an opinion on what private buildings should be built in New York City, something that is governed by various zoning ordinances and other city rules, and it is not the place of the president to vouch, for or against, the building of any religious institutions in any locations. The president shouldn't comment on whether a mosque should be built there, just as he shouldn't comment on whether a catholic church should be build somewhere. He has no relevant opinion. To say that he will not voice an opinion on something is only "questioning the "wisdom'" if you have immediately jumped to assuming the worst intent of his statements. And really, if you aren't willing to give the President the benefit of the doubt, if you aren't willing to be charitable to him in your interpretation of his remarks, then he can never ever win, by opening his mouth. Commentary like works to ensure that he never opens his mouth again on such matters. So I can't see how you can complain that he has "not fulfilled his full promise in terms of communicating with the American electorate during this very difficult time" if every time he opens his mouth you immediately agree with those who assume bad faith or take an uncharitable view. It is simply not possible for the president to communicate to the American People and change minds if everything he says is jumped on from all corners.

oddjob

And I'd add, I seriously question the "wisdom" of the way our government kowtows to certain factions of American power and industry (Big Oil, Big Israel, Big Defense) and meddles in the affairs of--oftentimes with multiple megatons of expensively lethal force--so very many Middle Eastern and/or Muslim countries.

Colonel Andrew Bacevich (US Army, retired), a professor at Boston University (who lost a son in either Iraq or Afghanistan, if memory serves), sympathizes.

Davis X. Machina

Sorry, Sir Charles, it's the fundamental depravity of mankind. Original sin.

Still, one must fight:

to give and not to count the cost,
to fight and not to heed the wounds,
to toil and not to seek for rest,
to labor and not to ask for reward,

Hear that daily for years, it leaves a mark.

Eric Wilde

But most of my despair is over the degree to which a great deal of the country has embraced the malevolent and irrational politics of the right wing

Come now, this is completely predictable and (as DXM stated) nothing new. We also have to expect the rhetoric and power of these despicable voices to increase in 2011-2012. With the midterm elections and the 2012 campaign, vile wingers will up the ante. You betcha.

oddjob

The political rhetoric will get uglier before it gets better.

low-tech cyclist

To me, it all comes back to global warming. I was depressed for weeks after GWB's election in 2004, and the biggest reason by far was the knowledge that it would be another four years, minimum, before we did anything constructive about climate change.

Now, as we near the end of that hottest of all summers I can remember, the summer where Russia burned up fercryinoutloud, and it's hard to see Congress acting on climate change before 2013. And (a) I'd bet against its happening to any meaningful extent then, and (b) it'd probably be too late by then to ramp anything up gradually that could make a difference in time.

My son Ilya just turned 3. He could well live to see the year 2100. (Sounds like SF, doesn't it? "In A.D. 2101, war was beginning...") Every time I think about this, a wave of despondency sweeps over me as I realize the extent to which we as a society have failed him. By the time his generation can vote, it'll be too late for them to undo the consequences of our inaction.

We really have a few years at most to begin to bend this particular curve, and it just isn't going to happen, is it?

Joe

L-T-C, I'm disappointed by the lack of movement on global warming too. But, we do have numerous levers to pull, including EPA regulations which could replicate the first 5-10 years of the current pending cap and trade bills. There is some movement on research. The stimulus package had lots of energy efficiency related money as well.

The problem is that a large number of Americans-- especially 55+ voters don't see a problem with global warming. I don't understand their reasoning-- but I don't think reason has a lot to do with it. However, over the next ten years, I think we're going to see a shift in public opinion. What we need to do is get several initial bills across the finish line, and then use tools at our disposal to incrementally increase their effectiveness (which will happen as the old generation of Democrats is replaced).

oddjob

I'll know the public's getting serious about that when they start seriously supporting bringing back passenger rail in a significant way (at least in those areas of the country that truly can support it in some plausible fashion).

Sir Charles

Corvus,

I'm sorry but it seems to me that when you make a bold statement like he did Friday night and then when pressed say "hey, I didn't say it was a good idea, only that they're within their rights to do it" the message conveyed is less than robust. I think it sounded like back sliding, like an attempt to look for a little cover -- and I think this is fuandamentlaly misguided, both in terms of not standing up for principle and showing weakness in the face of the onslaught by the wingers, aided and abetted by the press.

I don't think every fight in this world needs to be taken head on, but to me this is so fundamental, where what we are seeing here is sheer naked bigotry, that is incoumbent upon the President to be very clear that there is no reasonable opposition to the mosque.

Sir Charles

Please ignore the typos.

Crissa

I'm pretty sure there is no 'wisdom' about it. There was no way to know that someone would decide that a closed coat store would be mistaken for the world trade center crater. Hence not commenting about it. How can you comment on the 'wisdom' of making such a decision, when it's completely a reasonable decision to make?

I think people are seeing in the sentence what they want to see: Controversy.

low-tech cyclist

I hope you're right, Joe. I've just not heard anyone whose opinion I trust on this say that they expect EPA regulation to be even as effective as the House bill, which itself was filled with compromises. And we really only have ten years to pass a decent cap and trade bill if EPA regulation fills the gap in the meantime.

So here's hoping.

(And speaking as someone just barely in that 55+ age group, I may well live to see 2050. For better or worse, I'll see where this world is going before I take my leave of it. And hell, don't these folks have children and grandchildren?)

oddjob

If they cared about them would they be bequeathing them crippling debt in the name of making the megawealthy wealthier and in the name of war without end?

Joe

The World Resources Institute put out a report on how the EPA and the states acting together could keep us on track until approximately 2016-2017.

Eric Wilde

In the theme of things getting worse before they get better, climate change is going to have to get a heck of a lot worse before people do something about it. Brown people dying in Asia isn't going to budge the US public. We blow brown people in Asia up for fun and profit, so rising sea levels and millions displaced or lost will not make a bit of a difference to our consumption habits.

Individuals may change their behavior. I eschew a car for public transportation (though I must admit, my wife owns a car and uses it in her daily commute.) We walk to do all our weekly shopping, day care, etc. But, to quote DXM, collectively we behave like "shits".

oddjob

so rising sea levels and millions displaced or lost will not make a bit of a difference to our consumption habits.

Well, not if you're referring to the loss of island nations (such as the Maldives). On the other hand rising sea levels will cost the US a lot of dollars it otherwise wouldn't have to spend.

Sir Charles

Eric,

But public polic doesn't really halp us behave better. We have gotten by with one car -- well a couple of years with no car -- for twenty years. Although I have a very short commute -- about a mile -- I've driven because of meetings out of town, errands, kid pick up from practices, etc., while my wife took the bus or subway.

She recently got a job with the feds that is out in the suburbs and not accessible by public transit. So as a result of poor public policy -- locating federal office space ten miles out of the city with no Metro access --we are most likely going to add a second car. I have been trying to get by with zipcars, walking, and public transport, but once meetings in the suburbs for me start piling up, we will have to make this move.

This is typical of how bad planning makes us make bad choices.

Eric Wilde

This is typical of how bad planning makes us make bad choices.

Absolutely true. Similarly, people who live or work away from urban centers have a devil of a time with public transit.

minstrel hussain boy

yet one more reason to thank our stars that i am in no position of responsibility or public trust. my speech would have gone something like this:

so, you bigoted piece of shit motherfuckers are all butt hurt and feeling askeerd of a mosque? good. i fucking love it when small minded pissant racist jerkoffs like you feel small, afraid and stupid. you might even say i live for that. let me know some other stuff that bothers you and i will put it all at the top of my fucking to do list. you idiot, drooling, simpering whiners are allowing your lack of character and dearth of ideas to lead you onto ground where your idea of opposition is to be totally un-american. i'd pity you if you weren't so fucking annoying. be sure to get my staff that list. i promise swift action."

big bad wolf

DXM for the win! and perhaps the inspiration for the dylan clip above? "people are crazy and times are strange," i get the sense from bob's body of work he knows this is a constant. (this to me is what makes him so much more interesting than singers who might be better people, or at least more overtly aspirational people). it's a long arc, and while we move along it and create better programs and institutions, i doubt we'll ever be not crazy or strange.

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