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January 15, 2009

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oddjob

On a very tangential note:

in which Shrub's Science Advisor reveals more, far more, than he realizes.

(Hat tip, Twoglasses.)

Crissa

I remember writing about this in fourth grade, which was also twenty five years ago.

What gets me is that we still haven't begun to build a system capable of reprocessing, even while we've managed to finally get rid of most of our chemical weapons in deep storage.

Once again, here's something that people say would cost too much, and yet, would cost less than a year of the Iraq war.

drip

I know little about the issue, but I agree with the post, because it confirms my suspicions. Hey, it's the inter-tubes, right? I get to decide what's correct. Marginally more seriously, I have asked pro- and o-pponents of nuclear power to point me to a place where I can get enough information to make up my own stupid mind. If you can provide such a service without attracting nuclear trolls, you will have done something valuable.

In particular, if you ignore waste (for a moment) nukes seem like a no-brainer to me. The Calvert Cliffs plant in Maryland has been chugging along for years. I don't know how expensive it is to run compared to other plants, but Pepco and BGE don't seem any worse than any other utilities. Operating with no coal, no oil, no rivers dammed up -- well, it just seems sensible. As for the waste, reprocessing seems the way to go, till we figure out a way to send it to space safely. France is OK with it and if terrorists getting their hands on it is the problem, well, there are lots of people out of work who could guard it. I look forward to more. Welcome.

Sir Charles

Scott,

Thanks for providing so much content in your content. I

I, too, tend to come down gently on the pro-nuke side, especially if it would mean the ability to retire a lot of these coal fired power plants. I think we should look to see what the Europeans have done and learn from them.

Do you know anything about of the vast amounts of water that these plants require to cool them and whether there is a reasonable way to mitigate that aspect of their environmental impact?

oddjob

if you ignore waste (for a moment) nukes seem like a no-brainer to me

I don't know enough about waste reprocessing to have a good opinion on this. I know I think it's extremely irrepsonsible to create a problem with a life longer than the entire history of human civilization, but otherwise the only quibble I make with the idea that it's a no-brainer is that, from what very little I understand (& I don't know a lot about the matter), there isn't enough ore out there for this to be more than a short- or medium-term answer to our energy needs. If the waste can be handled in such a fashion as to not be a serious problem for the next several hundred thousand years-plus (or even the next thousand would be nice thank you very much), I agree it ought to somehow have a place at the table of energy solutions.

But only if!

Scott K

Yay! Questions to answer!

Crissa/drip regarding reprocessing:
Much of the political problem vis-a-vis proliferation with reprocessing is in no small part due to the fact that the Indian atomic test in 1974 was performed using plutonium that was reprocessed from fuel in a research reactor supplied by Canada for peaceful use. Prior to this point, reprocessing was being promoted on a worldwide scale. After that, the Ford administration began to take the approach of preventing the spread/use of reprocessing technology. A number of reprocessing plant orders were scrapped thanks to U.S. pressure (destined for various countries such as Pakistan, South Korea, and Brazil). The Carter administration imposed a ban on reprocessing, and the Reagan administration reversed it but was clear that private industry was going to have to take the lead on it (which nobody did, due to the cost involved). Even today, there are still a lot of people who are skittish about how to move towards some sort of global reprocessing program without having the reprocessing technology spread or having reprocessing plants become terrorist targets or be vulnerable to theft (you really don't need all that much material for an atomic bomb).

The economics are also tricky, because you are essentially comparing it (on a cost basis) to deep geological disposal. But you have to make assumptions about what it will ultimately cost for a deep repository, i.e., given all the problems that program has had so far, does that impact the cost assumptions significantly enough to make a difference? Also, reprocessing assumptions typically focus on a simple reprocessing paradigm in which the energy extracted from a given amount of uranium is increased by about 30%. There are other possibilities, such as a closed cycle involving fast breeder reactors with reprocessing, which has the potential to increase the amount of energy from a given quantity of uranium by a factor of 50-60. Nevertheless, today uranium ore is just so cheap compared to reprocessing that it is not possible to make a strong economic case for it today-- which is why the private industry isn't touching it. The current spot price range for uranium is around $50/lb, and it would probably have to get up to the neighborhood of $250/lb before reprocessing is seen as a cost-competitive option.

I still support reprocessing, simply because being obsessive about monetary cost really ignores a lot of the non-financial externalities and I don't feel completely comfortable committing to something permanent that potentially could have an impact in a million years. I am, however, sympathetic to some of the concern about proliferation because, as I said, it doesn't take all that much material to make a bomb. The key issue, to me, is developing a plant design and system that causes great difficulty in diverting any material (even small quantities).

Scott K

Sir C, regarding water.

One thing that sometimes gets lost in the debate about cooling water needs for nuclear plants is that nuclear plants are fundamentally designed as boilers, just like fossil plants. If you were to replace a nuclear plant with enough fossil plants to generate an equivalent amount of electricity, you'd still need the same amount of cooling water. The reason nuclear plants get so much press on this issue is because nuclear plants generally take advantage of economies of scale by siting two or more reactors on one site (in the US, I believe the maximum right now is three, but in other countries, it can be more), and each nuclear reactor can generate a heckuva lot of energy. The biggest reactors in the US generate around 1,300 megawatts of electricity and are run at full power 24/7 because they are cheaper to operate that way and there are xenon transient issues (ask if you really want the explanation) that makes it impractical to switch them on/off rapidly. Thus, there is a lot of cooling water needed in one location instead of dispersed throughout the country.

To control the impact to the environment, nuclear plants operate under two limits. One is how high the temperature difference upstream and downstream of the plant can be. The other is the maximum temperature that the water downstream of the plant can be. Both of these limits are based in large part on environmental impact studies. In the US, there have been a couple of times in the recent past when plants had to drop their power level in order to avoid violating these limits. During the heat wave in Europe not too long ago, some plants received exemptions to exceed the maximum temperature limit, but I think that the government was caught between a rock and a hard place. So far, cooling water has not been a huge problem in the US but may become more of an issue in the future (note that use of water for cooling does not preclude use for other purposes, since the same water is returned back into the river and is isolated from the radiation-contaminated water in the plant). One solution to this problem is to build more air cooling capability (i.e., cooling towers). Utilities have not done this yet because there has not been a widespread problem with the thermal discharge limits, but if there are more issues and the NRC is a good regulator and holds the line, then utilities will simply have to build more cooling towers/ponds.

Sir Charles

Thanks Scott.

Of course some of my bias towards nukes is because my clients love them -- talk about a lot of man hours for pipe fitters.

Funny nuke story -- there was a public hearing about permitting a possibly additional nuke on an existing site on a day that one of my clients was having a meeting with me. The head of the local union indicated that we would have to finish the meeting by a certain time so that he and his members could get to the meeting early and grab all of the seats "before the Sahara Club showed up." I did not spit my coffee out, which is the mark of a seasoned professional.

Scott K

oddjob, regarding nuclear ore supply: the OECD NEA & IAEA Uranium 2007: Resources, Production, and Demand ("Red Book") indicates that at the beginning of 2007, total known recoverable uranium ore resources using a price of $130/kg U (just under $60/lb, which is a little above the current spot price but the spot price was at $100/lb about a year ago as part of the widespread commodity price escalation) was about 5.5 million kg. The current ~370 GWe produced by the world's power reactors require about 65,000 metric tons of uranium every year. That implies sufficient uranium to last for over 80 years. Of course, more nuclear plants being built would mean more uranium needed. But use of different technologies would change the picture-- for example, breeder reactors which would actively produce more fissile material than it consumes, or thorium-fueled reactors. Also, as the price of uranium goes up, lower and lower grades come into play, even including extracting uranium from seawater (up to 4000 million metric tons). Estimates of the available uranium supply really depend heavily on a number of different factors. In the big picture, I think that the uranium supply is by far the least of the problems that the nuclear power industry has. The reason I only support it as a near to intermediate term solution is the simple fact that uranium is not an infinite resource and while nuclear power compares very favorably to much of the other generation options today, that won't always hold true.

ballgame

Good post, Scott K. I for one remain implacably opposed to nuclear power on the basis of the radioactive waste issue. I say that while being completely cognizant of the dire impact of both peak oil and global warming. (FWIW, you make a good case for reprocessing over the current longer-term storage approach, but that strikes me as an awful lot like the old, "Would you rather be thrown off a cliff or have your teeth pulled out without anaesthesia?" kind of choice.)

I think any true cost/benefit analysis of nuclear power will find that its costs far outweigh its meager benefits once you incorporate the need to protect the waste for (as you note) a minimum of hundreds of years.

In addition, my impression is that such storage is dependent on a prescience about geological events which exceeds our actual scientific capacities. The reference to the Oklo radioactive deposits seems rather misleading. If there HAD been some geological event in that region of Africa during that time — like maybe an earthquake or volcano — which spewed the material into the atmosphere, we likely wouldn't be here to discuss it.

As an emergency response to the peak oil/global warming situation, I think advocacy of the nuclear option should only be entertained AFTER there's been a widespread acceptance of the reality that we are, indeed, in an emergency situation. That is, only AFTER we've made massive financial and cultural commitments to public transportation, energy efficiency, and renewable energy sources, which we haven't remotely begun to do.

In the mean time, nuclear power strikes me as the energy version of Credit Default Swaps: a completely predictable disaster waiting to happen.

drip

Funny nuke story Only here could what followed actually be funny. Sahara Club, indeed.

Sir Charles

drip

I did not advise the client that I was a member of the Sahara Club.

Scott K

Sir C, Sahara Club-- ha! I'm sympathetic to your distaste for endless chatter on such subjects. I work in an area where I don't have to worry about these topics-- I leave that up to the experts.

Funny story of my own... one of my friends worked for a different company for some time, and he informed me that on one occasion, a letter had to be sent out to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. However, the secretary made a small typo and sent out the letter addressed to the "Unclear Regulatory Commission". They were not very amused.

Scott K

ballgame, I respect your position and only seek to pursue a productive discussion with the understanding that we may end it with a better understanding of each others' position, but without changing any opinions. That's just the way it is, sometimes.

I agree that the waste issue may be considered as an argument against nuclear power, but that still doesn't change the fact that there is already nuclear waste to be dealt with, and it is with that in mind that I wrote the guest post discussing the current state of affairs and what could be done or is being done. I left the extended issues for another post or comment. Now that you mention it, here goes...

Energy efficiency... I wonder what you mean by this, because there are a lot of programs currently being used to improve efficiency, varying from audits of homes/businesses to reduce energy use, changing daylight saving time shifts, transitioning to CFL bulbs, and so on. At some point, you ultimately have to start simply cutting out whole areas of energy use, which is difficult to implement due to the potential pain for the people involved. Also, many of the popular policy proposals right now for transportation involve the idea of electrifying as much as possible, ranging from electric rail to plug-in hybrids (or even pure electric vehicles, such as my motorcycle). That means a large increase in need for electricity that could very well swamp gains from energy efficiency initiatives.

You and I are on the same page vis-a-vis the need to move to an alternative energy infrastructure in the future. I think we mainly disagree on how to get from here to there. Solar cell manufacturing is a very energy-intensive process, mainly due to processing silica to produce silicon. Since most of the energy used is produced by fossil plants, the net carbon-emission addition to the environment is a good bit higher than that for nuclear power. Wind power is good, but I don't know if it can meet our needs on a large enough scale to replace a sufficient amount of fossil-fueled generation. On top of that, the current electric grid is not ideally set up for intermittent energy, so there will need to be large infrastructure investments. So I see nuclear power as a short-to-intermediate aid in cleaning up our current generation as we move away from fossil power to renewable energy-- a stepping stone, so to speak. Obviously, if the energy being used in manufacture of solar cells is not derived mainly from fossil fuels, the net impact on carbon emissions will be much lower.

Engineering analyses of Yucca Mountain involve multiple safeguards to address all kinds of "what-if" scenarios, rather than simply assuming that they won't happen. It is true that particularly extreme situations may not be adequately covered, but the vast majority of such situations would pose many more problems to mankind than what happens to the nuclear waste. To take your Oklo example, if a scenario such as you describe happened, there would be a lot of bigger problems, i.e., one theory proposed for the extinction of dinosaurs involves a massive volcano eruption. The issue that is more pertinent at Oklo is that the radioactive material did not enter the water table or otherwise migrate to areas where it could have an impact. Science/engineering isn't a perfect process, of course, but no industrial process is truly perfect. If you had an accident at a solar-cell production facility that resulted in an explosion and a plume of silica into the air, that probably would not be very desirable either. I have my own bones to pick with Yucca Mountain due to my basic sense that it is really just being considered as the most politically palatable (which is debatable) and cost-efficient method of disposal, rather than the most responsible method, but that does not necessarily invalidate the work of the engineers and scientists involved.

ballgame
I agree that the waste issue may be considered as an argument against nuclear power, but that still doesn't change the fact that there is already nuclear waste to be dealt with …

True enough, Scott K, and a difficult argument to rebut if one believes — as I do — that we should prioritize the cessation of nuclear-waste-generating activities. I guess I would ask a similar question from a different angle, though: if our current social and political systems are incapable of responsibly handling the toxic materials we've already produced, how can the expansion of such activities be morally acceptable when the increase of such materials can only heighten the likelihood of a potentially permanent catastrophe? Where is the limiting factor? If 12 nuclear plants are acceptable, why not 24? 240? I think the only sane approach is, "No more."

there are a lot of programs currently being used to improve efficiency, varying from audits of homes/businesses to reduce energy use

These are important but token efforts. If the U.S. were serious about energy efficiency, we would have gasoline taxes on par with what Europe charges; mass transit systems that would allow substantial numbers of people to live without cars; mandatory flex time and telecommuting regulations that would staunch rush hour traffic jams; and an approach to land ownership and zoning that would prevent such absurdities as workers in D.C. commuting from homes in Pennsylvania (to name just a few aspects of a genuinely serious national approach to our energy situation).

a large increase in need for electricity that could very well swamp gains from energy efficiency initiatives

That doesn't quite make sense. Leaving aside the technical issues of switching from the petroleum 'grid' to the electricity grid, if we're fueling cars with electricity instead of gasoline, by definition we're not using that gas anymore. At worst, you could theoretically use that oil to generate the electricity. (Obviously any alternative approach to gasoline to run our cars would need to use significantly fewer hydrocarbons — else why bother switching?)

I'm glad we're on the same page as far as moving to alternative energy resources goes. I don't quite understand your point about solar cell plants and fossil fuels. Why couldn't the initial batches of solar cells be immediately installed on the solar cell production plants, so that all future solar cell outputs would be largely hydrocarbon-emission free?

Your understanding of the engineering issues involved at Yucca Mountain — and durability of its safeguards — obviously exceeds my own. It remains unfathomable to me that we would use energy today and essentially place the burden of paying for that energy on untold generations of humanity to come. It also seems incredibly optimistic to believe that humans of unknown political institutions and perhaps only a dim understanding of the nature of the problem could be relied upon to deal responsibly with this waste when our own political system (which has complete knowledge of the issue) is almost incapable of doing so.

ballgame, I respect your position and only seek to pursue a productive discussion …

Same here, Scott K. Good faith discussions with those who hold views antithetical to one's own are sometimes the most interesting kinds. I've enjoyed reading your post and comments.

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