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December 21, 2008

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drip

“We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals; we know now that it is bad economics” --from FDR's Second Inarugural address.

From the Lessons Already Learned Dept.

Davis X. Machina

...the perfect information available in the free market as well as the ability of the market to police itself.

You can't refute a theology.

These people would rather sit in the ruins and keep warm by wrapping themselves up in intellectual consistency -- and old newspapers -- than live in a functional society that flies in the face of their orthodoxies.

I'd say "let 'em", if there weren't so many innocent victims, so much collateral damage.

drip

But the collateral damage is to people who knew Madoff was trading on inside information. He was a thief and a cheat and they were his partners.


Sir Charles

drip,

The interesting thing is that I don't think there is any evidence that Madoff was trading on inside information. People assumed that he was -- if it was a classic ponzi scheme he probably wasn't trading much at all.

It is of course shameful if people thought they would benefit by insider trading, but I'm not sure I'd wish this on them.

MikeJ

The invisible handjob of the market would actually do a much better job if Madoff were not under arrest and instead people were patting him on the back for being smarter than his victims.

It would be a lousy society, but there would be a lot more scrutiny of fund managers.

big bad wolf

SC, i'm not sure i'd wish this on them either, but, their own blindness, sense of insiderness, and greed does, i think, require a broadening of the critique. this is not simply a failure of ideologues or believers; it is a failure of people who don't think beyond their desires (and yet, oddly not of us all, though all of us fail to think beyond our desires at times). these people wanted quick money; sometimes for themselves, sometimes, sadly, for charity. i think that when even the people running charities are looking for quick returns, we have a widespread problem that many have to own up to.

drip

bbw and Mike J have it right, to the shame of the investors. I have no sympathy for them the fact that Madoff didn't cheat for them and instead just cheated them is justice. The allure of the Madoffs of the world is that their magic machines, systems and information are known only to the knowing. The risks were high, the rewards unlikely, so deal with it. If I was representing the SPIC, I would shift the burden to the conspirator/investors to show the affirmative fraud Madoff committed. Simply losing your money in a high risk adventure, or claiming that you were going to use it for some noble purpose should not result in another taxpayer funded insurance program for pigs.

Sir Charles

I suspect that there are varying degrees of culpability in this among investors. Some may well have been trying to ride on a wave of cheating in which they were on the inside. However, I suspect many of these people only knew of Madoff's reputation as some kind of genius and they viewed it as not so much a get rich scheme, but rather the opportunity to get very solid and steady returns. After all, Madoff wasn't returning 20, 30 or 40% per year -- he just kept clocking in with 10-12% per year. I am sure that this was highly alluring to a certain class of retiree in particular.

That and the flattering aspect of being allowed in the club.

big bad wolf

when i say a broader critique is warranted, i am not saying everyone is a criminal in this matter. they aren't. they are, however, so self-involved as to be blinded and they are not alone, as a society we have lost the ability to see that growth has costs and limits. yes, we need investments, as SC as pointed out about union pensions, but we need reasonable expectations of what returns are sustainable---10, 12, 15 is not. that was a neon warning sign, for people who could look beyond self-interest.

rhetorically, it may be politically useful to focus on a few clearcut bad guys, but, if we want to get out of this, we (that is, the obama administration) have to use this as a teachable moment---not to teach that bad guys are bad, but that growth for its own sake is bad, that self-interested seekign to the exclusion of broader community thinking is bad, and that, just like momma said, doing omething because everybody else is doing it is bad.

interesting article, i thought:
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10554

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