Greatest Generation, Indeed

Do not mess with WWII vets:

Concerning the service of Mr. Charles Payne: C.T. Payne was a soldier in the 89th Infantry Division. He served in the 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K. The 355th Infantry Regiment was the unit to liberate Ohrdruf. Mr. Payne was there.

For those who seek to minimize the horrors of Ohrdruf since it was a 'work' camp and not a 'death' camp, we have but one word: shame. Ironically, this argument has been made to us time and time again by various Holocaust-deniers and other pro-Nazi groups. We will let the testimony of survivors and veterans speak for themselves.

The idiots of the rightwing blogosphere - and that term is a compliment - are so used to impugning the character and questioning the truthfulness of any person saying something inconvenient to their fantasy world that they reall don't know when to keep their mouths shut and their keyboards silent. Via Sady, No! there's an unintentionally hilarious - and revealing - post by Steve Gilbert of Sweetness & Light wherein the staggeringly unaware blogger publishes email exchanges between himself, some readers and the proprietors of the 89th ID WWII website.

Mark Kitchell, who runs that website, is not happy with the inquiries and their tone.  He's obviously no supporter of George Bush.  Mr. Kitchell's unwillingness to toe the chickenhawk line gives us a prime example of what the wingnuts really mean when they say they "support the troops."  Here's a good example of the high regard Mr. Gilbert holds our veterans and their families if they refuse to do his bidding:

I wonder how many people who visit the 89th Infantry site and support Mr. Kitchell’s work realize his politics are those of Cindy Sheehan?

Only someone as unpatriotic and, frankly, stupid as Steve Gilbert - and his commenters, oh Lordy, his commenters - would even care what a person's politics are.  Raymond Kitchell served in the US Army during WWII, and was part of a group of soldiers that liberated Jews from a concentration camp.  He has seen horrors that would send cowards like Gilbert running to the hills, their poop-stained britches falling around their ankles as their eyes sting from their tears. 

God bless Raymond Kitchell for what he did in WWII.  God bless all the men and women who lived through such horrors, including members of Obama's family.  And God bless Mark Kitchell for being willing to stand up to baseless attacks against the character of one of his father's fellow soldiers and, now, his own personal character.  Gilbert and the other rightwing extremists aren't fit to lick the mud off Raymond Kitchell's WWII combat boots.

Comments

[Sir Charles]

Mr. Gilbert and his commenters are insane and inhuman. My urge to smack his stupid fucking face was overwhelming as I read this crap.

Who are these people? What makes them feel that they can cast aspersions on the service and politics of those who actually did the hard fighting of WWII and saw the unspeakable things that these veterans experienced? It is beyond shameful.

I feel unclean from just having sampled the comments.

[Toast]

My urge to smack his stupid fucking face was overwhelming as I read this crap.

Ditto. I'm generally not a violent person, but there are certain right-wing bloggers I'd really enjoy beating the ever-loving shit out of, and this guy is one of them.

[riffle]

"Who are these people? "

The same kind of people who attack and stalk a 12-year old boy who goes public about needing help with health insurance.

http://d-day.blogspot.com/2007/10/sick-thugs.html

Pathetic creeps abound in the winger movement.

[Lewis]

Right on!!!

Along the same line, I am tired of any politician's claim that we should vote for him because he supports our troops based on the fact that his next door neighbor's third cousin's step-grand-uncle was in the army.

My Great grandfather fought in the Civil War, my Dad, in WWII (He was a medic and was in the first plane to land at Okinawa after a landing site was "secure?" I served in the Korean war (Conflict, police action, whatever, as it is referred to).

This does not prove anything at all about my political beliefs at all, nor does it signify how I would treat the military if elected to any office that could affect the services.

[Sir Charles]

Just in case these ass clowns invoke the idea that liberating a slave labor camp was somehow not so disturbing, I suggest viewing the depiction of the liberation of one of the Dachau sub-camps by Americans in the Band of Brothers mini-series. It's a really gut wrenching episode -- one can't begin to imagine how traumatic such a thing would have been in reality.

[Obama Historian]

The Charles T. Payne who did serve in the US Army and was a member of the team who first visited Ohrduf on April 4, 1945 WAS NO RELATION to Obama. The only Charles Payne, born 1924 as a Great Uncle to Barack was Charles W. Payne, he served in the U.S. Navy that played no role in the liberation of any German camps.

Charles W. was Madelyn's brother. The records of his service are preserved by the Kansas Historical Society and show his enlistment date as November, 1942.

Thus the Charles T. Payne, US Army, serving with the 355th bears no relationship to Senator Obama.
_______________
Kansas Historical Society Records

Payne, Charles L. Inducted 22 November 1943, Navy 8671474 Registered, order # 11695 Eldorado, Butler Co. (Board # 1)
Payne, Charles T. Enlisted 13 December 1942, 3427439 Unregistered Kansas City, Wyandotte Co. (Board # 4)
Payne, Charles W. Enlisted 10 November 1942, Navy 6293977 Registered, order # 12017 Kansas City, Wyandotte Co. (Board # 4)
Payne, Charles W. Enlisted , Navy 6287657 Registered, order # 11111 Hutchinson, Reno Co. (Board # 3)

The records of the 89'th do show a Charles T. Payne who was with the Ohrduf team. He was no relation to Barack's maternal Grandmother, Madelyn who did have a brother named Charles, born 1924. His middle initial is W ......... and not T. He served in the
United States Navy. Charles W. would be classified as a Great Uncle, being a brother of his Grandmother and not of his Mother who had no brother.

<< Barack Obama Family Tree, Generations 1-3

Fourth Generation (Great Grandparents):
8. Obama was born in Kendu Bay, Kenya

9. Nyaoke

Obama had four wives, one of whom was Nyaoke. She fathered many children, of whom Onyango was the fifth son.

12. Ralph Waldo Emerson DUNHAM was born 24 December 1894 in Argonia, Sumner County, Kansas and died 4 October 1970 in Wichita, Sedgwick, Kansas.

13. Ruth Lucille ARMOUR was born in 1900 in Illinois and died (by suicide) on 25 November 1926 in Wichita, Sedgwick County, Kansas.

Ralph DUNHAM and Ruth ARMOUR were married on 3 October 1915 in Wichita, Sedgwick County, Kansas and had the following children:
i. Ralph Emerson DUNHAM, Jr., born 29 August 1916 (spouse Elizabeth Smith)
6. ii. Stanley Armour DUNHAM
The family is found living with Ruth's parents in the 1920 federal census of Sedgwick County, Kansas. In 1930, Ralph Jr. and Stanley are with their maternal grandparents in Butler County, Kansas, while their father, Ralph Sr. was enumerated with his parents in Sedgwick County, Kansas.

14. Rolla Charles PAYNE was born 23 August 1892 in Olathe, Johnson County, Kansas and died in Kansas in October 1968.

15. Leona MCCURRY was born about May 1897 in Kansas.

Rolla Charles PAYNE and Leona MCCURRY married in Kansas about 1922 and had the following children:

1. i. Madelyn PAYNE
ii. Charles W. PAYNE born about 1924.
iii. Arlene PAYNE born about 1926.

[Sir Charles]

Oy - get ready folks -- it's going to be a long campaign.

[Matt Weiner]

Obama historian -- why don't you stop by the Kitchell's place and tell them that? Then post video of the resulting beatdown.

[weboy]

It was going to be a long campaign all along; it's hardly a surprise at this late date, except maybe to the "hug it out" sensibilities of some Obama supporters.

Without giving Mr. Gilbert too much credit, the responses he got from Kitchell do seem a bit... odd. Gilber, trying to verify something Obama said, asked for confirming information. It seems a little extreme to go with "get lost" as a response.

Second, in an era where these "veracity" claims have become more than a little deal, I don't think it's at all surprising that people are investigating a curious claim. It's useful, if nothing else, to remind people the history of the end of World War II enough to remember that the Russians liberated Poland, and were the first into Auschwitz. It doesn't seem, at least to me, that crazy to want to simply confirm that Obama had a relative actually involved in liberating concentration camps. As to the notion that there's some dramatic difference between Auxhwitz and Ohrdruf, I haven't see that said, and I certainly don't see it as true, or relevant. But it is indeed going to be a long slog if Democrats plan to reject even reasonable questions like "which relative" and "when" and "where" type questions. Amnd given the Obama supporters' relentless run at "Tuzla" and "sniper fire" I think the latest round is neither surprising... nor unwarranted.

[Sir Charles]

Weboy,

Give me a break. The notion that any of us has a "hug it out" sensibility here -- me in particular -- is just specious. We all well understand what we are up against here -- we just didn't think that the battle would also include so much bad fatih from our fellow Democrats.

And what is this relentless run at Tuzla crap? I just don't recall that being a big meme amongst Obama supporters or the campaign. Once again I think the obsessions of the media are being conflated with the Obama campaign.

And lastly, you seem to be suggesting that Mr. Gilbert's inquiries are somehow warranted -- do you really want to be making common cause with these people? Jesus.

[weboy]

Charles, I think there's a reasonable interest in finding out the details about this relative of Obama's who was there for the liberation of the camps. Not to play "gotcha" but because it's an interesting story. I think it was a mistake for Obama not to have the details in order when he made the claim, which adds to the scrutiny... but people will look because it's interesting, and it's an aspect of understanding the holocaust that touches Americans in a direct way.

I did also say at the outset that I don;t want to give Gilbert to much credit... but I don't think his e-mail asking for confirmation was beyond the pale, either.

Finally, the "sniper fire at Tuzla" story was surely egged on by Obama supporters and bloggers. And I think, although it was overblown, the fact that Mrs. Clinton misstated some aspects of her recollections was fair game. And yes, I do think the rosy notion of "new politics" does tend to play to a naivete in some Obama supporters... though I never said you. I'm sorry if that seemed to be implied.

And though I wish we could all get along... I'm not under any illusions that a hard fought, occasionally ugly contest between two sets of passionate supporters - one that is, in actuality, still playing out - is going to end in an immediate lovefest. I respect your points of view Charles. We don't agree. And like many Clinton supporters, I'm not taking up the Obama mantle just yet. I reserve the option to be critical, as I have been, though I will certainly support him as a nominee.

[Sir Charles]

Weboy,

I think Gilbert and all of his allies are in fact caught up in a demented game of gotcha -- the swiftboating instinct, something with which your candidate is familiar, is about all these clowns have going for them. Again, if you look at the comments on this site you will see what an odious group of people they really are. I believe Mr. Kitchell sensed that he was dealing with a bunch of ratfuckers and reacted accordingly.

Ironically, their patron saint, Ronald Reagan, used to cite events from old movies as facts and they seemed not to mind a bit.

I don't think Obama himself has any illusions about the nature of the campaign in which he will be engaged nor do I think those of us who have been political observers for any length of time. I think what Obama is betting on is that the average American voter finds these practices repellent and that he can win votes by striking a loftier tone and fighting back simultaneously.

[skylights]

If this episode doesn't convince you of the total moral and intellectual bankruptcy of today's right wing, nothing will.

[J.W. Hamner]

weboy said:
As to the notion that there's some dramatic difference between Auxhwitz and Ohrdruf, I haven't see that said, and I certainly don't see it as true, or relevant.

That in fact has been said. See John Cole pillory one offender. It is technically true, but in a meaningless sense that should offend any reasonable person's moral sensibilities. It is relevant only in the sense that it reveals how desperate some wingnuts are.

I actually don't have a problem with media/bloggers forcing a political figure to clarify a misstatement... but I agree with Stephen that the grasping at straws that we're seeing has passed from "look at the silly Malkinites" into the realm of patently offensive. For a group that pretends to speak for soldiers, they (continually) seem to have a shocking disrespect for veterans.

[Sir Charles]

J.W.

They care about veterans only in the abstract, essentially as a cudgel with which to beat their opponents -- real live veterans with needs and demands and differing political views -- not so much. (See G.I. Bill vote.)

I think I had seen an attempt to differentiate the labor from the extermination camps which led to my posting above -- I just couldn't remember where I had seen it, but it seemed to me the product of minds so deranged as to leave one's mouth agape.

[J.W. Hamner]

Sir Charles:

"Agape" is too kind, but as I think Yglesisas noted, one good thing to come from this is: getting to watch wingnuts get cuddly with Stalin to try and explain their insanity. Commies did what!? Saved the World!? Yup.

[Sir Charles]

J.W.

All I have to say is

"Kusrk bitches!"

[Sir Charles]

I am so humiliated -- it should read Kursk.

Although it seems apropos given your reference to our spelling challenged friend Mr. Yglesias.

[Obama Historian]

Sir Charles:

If Kitchell wishes to post incorrect information to serve his agenda, let him continue to do so, just know that his information is based on something other than facts and let him continue his fantasies.

Those who support Obama may do the same, I prefer to rely upon genuine facts as a basis for making decisions.

FACT:
Barack's Mother did not have a Brother
Barack did not have an Uncle Charlie

There are no other facts which bear on this contrived story, find another fairy tale.

It just happens that I'm a former Obama supporter who believes that it does him no service to use fiction in his support and am deeply disappointed that his minions chose to follow that path.

I'm an equal opportunity critic who still believes in old fashioned integrity!!